# The Joe Horn "He Needed Killin'" Shooting Case: Your Opinions on His Acquittal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100 "2008-07-02T21:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/41 "2008-07-03T02:55:13Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Obviously, a world in which vigilante capital punishment for burglary is the norm is not a little safer. [/QUOTE] Damn safe, as long as you’re a law biding citizen ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/42 "2008-07-03T02:56:53Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] Damn safe, as long as you’re a law biding citizen [/QUOTE] Vigilantes don’t always get it right. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/43 "2008-07-03T02:59:10Z")
This case is like a Tom Wolfe story come to life. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/44 "2008-07-03T03:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Obviously, a world in which vigilante capital punishment for burglary is the norm is a worse place. [/QUOTE] There is nothing “obvious” about it. While it is certainly easy to blow the following statement all out of proportion (and I have no doubt that someone will attempt to do so), a world where law abiding citizens defend their lives and property (and perhaps even their neighbor’s lives and property) with force (even deadly force) against worthless fucking criminals and thieves would very quickly be a world with a whole lot less assault and burglary, and that world wouldn’t be a worse place at all. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/45 "2008-07-03T03:04:31Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] Damn safe, as long as you’re a law biding citizen [/QUOTE] Because no one ever misses their targets? Or gets nervous and jumpy when they’re adrenaline is pumping? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/46 "2008-07-03T03:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Vigilantes don’t always get it right. [/QUOTE] ALWAYS - Neither do the cops for that matter The bottom line is still if they hadn’t been breaking the law, they would still be alive. If our criminal justice system had seen fit to deport illegal immigrant felons back to their home country, they would still be alive…or at least would not have been breaking into a home in Houston. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/47 "2008-07-03T03:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] a world where law abiding citizens defend their lives and property (and perhaps even their neighbor’s lives and property) with force (even deadly force) against worthless fucking criminals and thieves would very quickly be a world with a whole lot less assault and burglary, and that world wouldn’t be a worse place at all. [/QUOTE] Do you have any evidence to back this up? It seems to me quite counter-intuitive for several reasons. Firstly, using deadly force is an assualt in itself, so it drives up the assault rate by definition. Secondly, if criminals believe that they will encounter citizens willing to use force, it motivates the criminals to arm themselves and to use violence more readily. Thirdly, killing people can have indirect consequences, none of which are good. For example, if you kill the father of a child, you’d greatly increase the odds that the child will become a criminal upon growing up. By contrast, I do not see how killing criminals will reduce the number of assaults or burglaries. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/48 "2008-07-03T03:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] The bottom line is still if they hadn’t been breaking the law, they would still be alive. [/quote] There are multiple “bottom lines” here. Another one being: if Joe Horn hadn’t decided to go off the handle and shoot them for stealing his neighbor’s stuff, they would still be alive. [QUOTE=flickster] If our criminal justice system had seen fit to deport illegal immigrant felons back to their home country, they would still be alive…or at least would not have been breaking into a home in Houston. [/QUOTE] Not so much, considering that at least one of them [had already been deported once.](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-burgarsshot_01tex.ART.State.Edition1.4d5145d.html) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/49 "2008-07-03T03:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] There is nothing “obvious” about it. While it is certainly easy to blow the following statement all out of proportion (and I have no doubt that someone will attempt to do so), a world where law abiding citizens defend their lives and property (and perhaps even their neighbor’s lives and property) with force (even deadly force) against worthless fucking criminals and thieves would very quickly be a world with a whole lot less assault and burglary, and that world wouldn’t be a worse place at all. [/QUOTE] It is obvious, to all but the most twisted sociopaths. This guy was not defending his life, or anybody’s life. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/50 "2008-07-03T03:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Do you have any evidence to back this up? It seems to me quite counter-intuitive for several reasons. Firstly, using deadly force is an assualt in itself, so it drives up the assault rate by definition. [/quote] Clearly, in this case that is not true. Joe was found to be acting within the letter of the law. > [@](#): > > Thirdly, killing people can have indirect consequences, none of which are good. For example, if you kill the father of a child, you’d greatly increase the odds that the child will become a criminal upon growing up. Well, maybe the child won’t have a dirt bag criminal for a father figure to look up to and pattern their life after. Maybe they’ll actually have a chance to grow up in a household of law biding citizens instead. > [@](#): > > By contrast, I do not see how killing criminals will reduce the number of assaults or burglaries. Maybe there is not an infinite number of criminals… ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/51 "2008-07-03T03:22:15Z")
I really don’t like people who break laws I think are valid, like robbery and assault. I can accept individuals who take action when the state is slow to act or incapable. I would have indicted and cheerfully convicted Mr. Horn in any state without the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/52 "2008-07-03T03:26:08Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] There are multiple “bottom lines” here. Another one being: if Joe Horn hadn’t decided to go off the handle and shoot them for stealing his neighbor’s stuff, they would still be alive. [/quote] And no doubt would still be up to their thieving ways > [@](#): > > Not so much, considering that at least one of them [had already been deported once.](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-burgarsshot_01tex.ART.State.Edition1.4d5145d.html) A perfect example of how weak our border control is. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/53 "2008-07-03T03:27:32Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] A perfect example of how weak our border control is. [/QUOTE] So that’s another reason they needed killin’ ? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/54 "2008-07-03T03:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] So that’s another reason they needed killin’ ? [/QUOTE] I said nothing of the kind. I merely implied that our weak border control allowed this dirt bag to return to the US and resume his criminal ways. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/55 "2008-07-03T03:34:54Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] Clearly, in this case that is not true. Joe was found to be acting within the letter of the law. [/quote] I was using the English-language definition of assault, not the legal definition in Texas. If it looks like an assault and it walks like an assault and it quacks like an assault then it is an assault. > [@](#): > > Well, maybe the child won’t have a dirt bag criminal for a father figure to look up to and pattern their life after. Maybe they’ll actually have a chance to grow up in a household of law biding citizens instead. Possible but highly unlikely, wouldn’t you agree? With no father, the child is now in a broken household, and is less likely to complete his education. He will need to find some community to take part in, and a gang is a likely choice. > [@](#): > > Maybe there is not an infinite number of criminals… Obviously there is not, yet for some reason crimes continue to occur despite our brave ctizenry bravely shooting unarmed men in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/56 "2008-07-03T03:44:57Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] And no doubt would still be up to their thieving ways [/QUOTE] It appears (from the story) that they would have been caught. And then, due to the laws of Texas, upon conviction, they would not have been executed. Huh. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/57 "2008-07-03T03:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] So far as I can tell, his actions were legal. I don’t agree with them – no one’s life is worth $2,000 worth of stuff. But we send signals through our adoption of laws, and while I would not have taken the fight out to the street, as Horn did, I certainly would not now twist the law in an effort to punish him criminally for an act which his state laws permit. [/QUOTE] Were his actions legal even as the law is written? Let’s say someone is robbing your house in Texas (pretend you live there) and you come home and see them running out of the house away from you. Under texas law you are free to shoot them in the back? If yes then I guess his actions were legal. However, I do not think it would be twisting the law to get an indictment and then let it be decided at trial with all the evidence laid out. That said we can certainly argue here if the Texas law is too permissive. Certainly seems that way to me and apparently, after this incident, even the original author of the law says it was not intended to cover a situation like this. I would expect the Texas legislature will be tightening up the language of that law soon(ish). > [@](#): > > But the legislator who authored the “castle doctrine” bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor’s property, to prompt a “‘Law West of the Pecos’ mentality or action,” said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. “You’re supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle.” > > SOURCE: [Man Kills Suspects While On Phone With 911 - CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/17/national/main3517564.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/58 "2008-07-03T03:58:21Z")
It is sick. Horn wanted to kill them. He went out of his way to do it. He was told not to. The cops were there. He did it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/59 "2008-07-03T03:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] That said we can certainly argue here if the Texas law is too permissive. Certainly seems that way to me and apparently, after this incident, even the original author of the law says it was not intended to cover a situation like this. I would expect the Texas legislature will be tightening up the language of that law soon(ish). [/QUOTE] Yea, the more I think about it the more I agree the Texas law should be rewritten to be a lot less permissive. I mean, not every thief is a Colombian career criminal. I (and I imagine a decent number of other dopers) went through a phase of petty crime involving a certain amount of theft and/or destruction of other peoples property when I was a teenager. Certainly not something to be proud of, but I don’t think I deserved to have my head blown off for it either. One wonders if Mr Horn would’ve got off as easily if he’d blown away a couple of local teens committing the same crime instead of a pair of illegal immigrants with prior records. I mean, its not like he stopped to interview them before deciding to shoot. I suspect he was actually pretty lucky that his targets turned out to be who they were instead of someone even slightly more sympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100/60 "2008-07-03T04:08:55Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Possible but highly unlikely, wouldn’t you agree? With no father, the child is now in a broken household, and is less likely to complete his education. He will need to find some community to take part in, and a gang is a likely choice. [/QUOTE] I would think it even more likely that with either of these father figures, the kid would be doomed to a life of crime and gang membership. I’m just sure either one of these fine upstanding citizens were patiently working with their kids every night making sure their homework and chores were done and that they were in bed at a decent hour :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-joe-horn-he-needed-killin-shooting-case-your-opinions-on-his-acquittal/455100.md?page=4)