# The kanicbird boarder wall solution, and Mexico will pay for it **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800 "2019-01-15T15:06:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/41 "2019-01-15T18:56:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If it was a sincere thought, it was ill-thought out and rather insensitive. By the way, if your take-home pay had an extra 10% taken from it and then cut in half, how well would _you_ fare? > “Where do they live now?” In places their very meager pay allows them to live. Reduce that take-home to a fraction that is less than 50% of the original, and you deny them even that necessity. Do you think their landlords will allow them to cut their rent in half? For someone who has lived in a tent, I think you are assuming a bit too much that they have landlords, but i could be mistaken. My thoughts again is they are earning most of that money for Mexico, not to spend in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/42 "2019-01-15T19:04:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Where do they stay now? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > That may be something you should look at before you propose to make them live on a fraction of what they now earn, dontcha think? Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/43 "2019-01-15T19:08:49Z")
What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell? (Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they’re contracted from.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/44 "2019-01-15T19:11:56Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there. [From this site:](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2016/05/02/struggle-to-provide-housing-for-migrant-farmworkers) > [@](#): > > According to the U.S. Department of Labor, 17 percent of all hired farmworkers, both migrant and settled, live in employer-owned housing. Among those who lived in employer housing, 76 percent lived there free of charge. (The statistics do not differentiate between migrant and permanent farmworkers.) Fewer farmworkers are living in employer housing than in 1995, when employers owned nearly 30 percent of farmworker housing units. > > (Farmers who hire guest workers on H2A visas are required by law to provide free housing and transportation, but these workers only account for 2 to 5 percent of all migrant workers. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/45 "2019-01-15T19:22:08Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there. That was my initial assumption which has been challenged. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/46 "2019-01-15T19:23:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell? > > (Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they’re contracted from.) Um, Ok, but yeah, the US has to get paid too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/47 "2019-01-15T19:26:57Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What if we let them keep all their pay, but if they overstay their visa, they get raped by demons from hell? > > (Or from anywhere, really. The key thing is the demon-rape, not where they’re contracted from.) > [@kanicbird](#): > > Um, Ok, but yeah, the US has to get paid too. The politicians will promise that the demon-rapers will foot the bill for the punishment, but you can be sure that it will be the American taxpayers left with the bill for the mystical sexual assaults :mad: ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/48 "2019-01-15T19:30:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The politicians will promise that the demon-rapers will foot the bill for the punishment, but you can be sure that it will be the American taxpayers left with the bill for the mystical sexual assaults :mad: Wouldn’t demon-rapers be those who rape demons? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/49 "2019-01-15T19:40:32Z")
Fine. I rescind the hyphen. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/50 "2019-01-15T19:41:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They only get to use half their pay? What the hell can you do food-and-board wise with half migrant worker scale pay? Actually, many migrant workers send home around half their take home pay. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/51 "2019-01-15T19:44:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Where do they stay now? Having worker with Migrant farm workers in CA, by and large the most live in pay by the month cheap motels, with often four guys sharing the room. It works out to about $2-300 per month. Some live in tents in camps. Some live where they work, in very low cost subsidized housing provided by the employer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/52 "2019-01-15T19:46:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, many migrant workers send home around half their take home pay. How many is “many”, and what is your source? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/53 "2019-01-15T19:50:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Hey OP, forget the wall, forget immigration, forget your proposal. > > Why do you suppose that some people work under the table instead of above-board jobs, knowing that they may risk various penalties for doing so? By and large, after a IRS program a few decades ago, very few migrant farm workers are paid under the table. This is due to two factors- the iRS _severely_ enforces payroll tax laws. They will padlock your business, seize bank accounts,and even your farm. and two, when ICE come calling, if you have farm workers and the illegals ar epaid under the table and less- that is solid evidence that you knew they were illegal and you get arrested. It’s better to just accept their bogis Soc Sec cards and pay them the same as the rest of the workers- quite a few of whom are Mexican American citizens. “Plausible deniability”. This is why so few employers are arrested when raids are made. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/54 "2019-01-15T19:54:39Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most migrant farm workers live in dilapidated housing provided by their employer farms. The majority of money earned by migrant workers is sent or taken back to their home countries to support family members there. Quite a few of each, yes. I may demur with your use of “most” and “majority” but it is a very significant % in both cases, and my experience is limited to just California. It is amazing the depth of ignorance on this subject. No, most Migrant workers are not paid under the table. Also, a good farm worker, expert in say picking strawberries can earn quite large sums in that short season, more than even a teacher, say. _Yearly_, otoh, the pay sucks. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/55 "2019-01-15T20:02:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many is “many”, and what is your source? I was part of a special project with the US Treasury. > **[Mexicans In The U.S. Are Sending Home More Money Than Ever](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever)** > > A new report finds that remittances by migrants from Latin America and the Caribbean topped $69 billion last year — the highest amount on record. _About 40 percent of the money goes to just one country — Mexico — practically all of it sent by migrants in the United States. The recent surge is all the more notable because migration from Mexico has slowed to a crawl — with the number of migrants in the U.S. increasing by just 1 percent between 2010 and 2016 to a total of 11.8 million. Also, says Orozco, the median amount that any given Mexican migrant sends hasn’t changed — about $300 at a go, 14 times a year, most commonly through a money transfer company such as Western Union._ If we assume the $7500 figure is correct, that is like $6500 after taxes. They send home $4200 a year. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/56 "2019-01-15T20:11:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Over what other option? Again the are not forced to cross under this program, they can chose another one if they qualify. Over your plan. The one we’re discussing in this thread. You’re not going to convince people to cross the border legally if you make it worse than crossing the border illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/57 "2019-01-15T20:17:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I was part of a special project with the US Treasury. > [Mexicans In The U.S. Are Sending Home More Money Than Ever : Goats and Soda : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever) > _About 40 percent of the money goes to just one country — Mexico — practically all of it sent by migrants in the United States. The recent surge is all the more notable because migration from Mexico has slowed to a crawl — with the number of migrants in the U.S. increasing by just 1 percent between 2010 and 2016 to a total of 11.8 million. Also, says Orozco, the median amount that any given Mexican migrant sends hasn’t changed — about $300 at a go, 14 times a year, most commonly through a money transfer company such as Western Union._ > > If we assume the $7500 figure is correct, that is like $6500 after taxes. They send home $4200 a year. Thank you-now let us work with these numbers to see what we get: Presuming the 10% tax is on the whole amount and not just the half the worker gets initially, The take home average should be about $2975/year. I can’t imagine living off of that, and that is providing she/he _isn’t_ sending anything to the family back home. How does that work back home, anyway? “We can’t pay for food, clothing, housing or medical now, but if you all wait until the end of the year we promise we will pay you all that we owe you”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/58 "2019-01-15T20:18:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > By and large, after a IRS program a few decades ago, very few migrant farm workers are paid under the table. > > This is due to two factors- the iRS _severely_ enforces payroll tax laws. They will padlock your business, seize bank accounts,and even your farm. > > and two, when ICE come calling, if you have farm workers and the illegals ar epaid under the table and less- that is solid evidence that you knew they were illegal and you get arrested. It’s better to just accept their bogis Soc Sec cards and pay them the same as the rest of the workers- quite a few of whom are Mexican American citizens. “Plausible deniability”. This is why so few employers are arrested when raids are made. I am not arguing against any of that, which is why I specifically asked the OP to forget the matters of immigration and whatnot. Millions of people work in the informal economy, and I seek the OPs thoughts on why some workers do that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/59 "2019-01-15T20:20:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Over your plan. The one we’re discussing in this thread. > > You’re not going to convince people to cross the border legally if you make it worse than crossing the border illegally. There’s another idea- the bracero program. Give them a limited visa. They may come here as long as they have a job. The limited visa does not give them possible citizenship rights as a real “green card” does. Aaka the H2A visa:\* An H-2A visa allows a foreign national entry into the United States for temporary or seasonal agricultural work. There are several requirements of the employer in regard to this visa. The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring non-immigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.[1] In 2015 there were approximately 140,000 total temporary agricultural workers under this visa program. Terms of work can be as short as a month or two or as long as 10 months in most cases, although there are some special procedures that allow workers to stay longer than 10 months. All of these workers are covered by U.S. wage laws, workers’ compensation and other standards; additionally, temporary workers and their employers are subject to the employer and/or individual mandates under the Affordable Care Act. Because of concern that guest workers might be unfairly exploited the U.S. Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division is especially vigilant in auditing and inspecting H-2A employers. H-2A employers are the only group of employers who are required to pay inbound and outbound transportation, free housing, and provide meals for their workers. H-2A agricultural employers are among the most heavily regulated and monitored employers in the United States. Unlike other guest worker programs, there is no cap on the number of H-2A visas allocated each year.[2]\* > **[Bracero Program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program)** > > The Bracero Program (from the Spanish term bracero \[bɾaˈse.ɾo\], meaning "manual laborer" or "one who works using his arms") was a U.S. Government-sponsored program that imported Mexican farm and railroad workers into the United States between the years 1942 and 1964. > The program, which was designed to fill agriculture shortages during World War II, offered employment contracts to 5 million braceros in 24 U.S. states. It was the largest foreign worker program in U.S. history. > The program was... ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/60 "2019-01-15T20:21:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You were forced to present it to us immediately without doing any research on it? It’s [THREAD=586551]hardly his first time[/THREAD]. I don’t feel I can comment on this ‘proposal’ under the limitations of this forum other than to observe that undocumented immigrants are already a net fiscal positive for the United States–[to the tune of billions of dollars they pay into Social Security alone which they are not eligible to apply for](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/) and notwithstanding the crucial role they fill in the low wage agricultural, meat-packing, and home care industries–and the notion that we should squeeze even more out of them because of some kind of butt-hurt and entitled sense of injustice hedges this ridiculous proposal within spitting range of indentured servitude. How about instead of building a stupid wall or garnishing the wages of workers to correct some counterfactual notion of a fiscal imbalance, we actually put effort into reforming the immigration system to allow foreign workers to come over here and work legitimately with training and protections that we afford to the very least of citizens, and encourage them to gain education for themselves and their families so they can eventually return to the home nations that most of them would like to live in and develop mercantile and agricultural industries so their nations can become vibrant economies that can afford to buy more expensive American goods and services? That is, if you believe that the United States still has the capability and vitality to be competitive in technology and high end industries. In other words, economics is not some kind of zero sum game where the United States only wins if everybody else loses, which seems to be a basic tenet of macroeconomics which is completely lost on the protectionist tariff and blockade crowd. I’ll aver from saying more if and until this thread is moved to the **BBQ Pit** where it belongs. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=4)