# The kanicbird boarder wall solution, and Mexico will pay for it **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800 "2019-01-15T15:06:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/61 "2019-01-15T20:28:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It was a thought I had while hiking, I wanted to see how it flies. (it was also why I didn’t have time to research the things you and others questioned.) Did you consider researching how to spell the word border? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/62 "2019-01-15T20:32:07Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It’s [THREAD=586551]hardly his first time[/THREAD]. WOW remembrance from 2010 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/63 "2019-01-15T20:33:21Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did you consider researching how to spell the word border? See post #34 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/64 "2019-01-15T20:33:55Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t feel I can comment on this ‘proposal’ under the limitations of this forum other than to observe that undocumented immigrants are already a net fiscal positive for the United States–[to the tune of billions of dollars they pay into Social Security alone which they are not eligible to apply for](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/) and notwithstanding the crucial role they fill in the low wage agricultural, meat-packing, and home care industries–and the notion that we should squeeze even more out of them because of some kind of butt-hurt and entitled sense of injustice hedges this ridiculous proposal within spitting range of indentured servitude. How about instead of building a stupid wall or garnishing the wages of workers to correct some counterfactual notion of a fiscal imbalance, we actually put effort into reforming the immigration system to allow foreign workers to come over here and work legitimately with training and protections that we afford to the very least of citizens, and encourage them to gain education for themselves and their families so they can eventually return to the home nations that most of them would like to live in and develop mercantile and agricultural industries so their nations can become vibrant economies that can afford to buy more expensive American goods and services? That is, if you believe that the United States still has the capability and vitality to be competitive in technology and high end industries. > > In other words, economics is not some kind of zero sum game where the United States only wins if everybody else loses, which seems to be a basic tenet of macroeconomics which is completely lost on the protectionist tariff and blockade crowd. r You are correct. The USA does nothing but gain from migrant farm workers, etc. They commit less crime, ask for less aid, work at jobs the average American wont and cant. We _need_ them in the Ag industry. The only reason for the Wall is racist Xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/65 "2019-01-15T20:44:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … > > The only reason for the Wall is racist Xenophobia. Or a monument to self. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/66 "2019-01-15T21:09:34Z")
Actually, I’m going to slightly shift my comments given that kanicbird is saying they won’t change any existing immigration policies and this is merely an additional option for entry with funds curiously earmarked for a “wall.” In which case, like, okay? I don’t think it’s a GOOD plan, but if you float it and people want to apply and it somehow passes a cost analysis to merely keep itself running…then sure. But I really doubt this would produce revenue in any meaningful way. I still think it would just increase net illegal immigration by adding a new way for people to enter and overstay. But, hey, it’s a safer way than desert crossing so I guess that’s good? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/67 "2019-01-16T00:30:11Z")
I’m reading this more as a plan that Trump might get behind because he can sell it to his base as Mexico paying for the wall, when the reality is that it would get little revenue, but not really hurt anything (assuming nothing else is changed). In that form, it’s not the worst idea I’ve heard. I’m just not sure even a show of giving Trump what he wants is a good idea at this point. I’m actually for migrant worker programs with eventual possibility for citizenship. But it would require cracking down on hiring undocumented workers, particularly those who help them get fake SS numbers and stuff. It would have to be the only option. Still, it fits my idea that the way to fix the illegal immigration problem is to allow legal immigration to rise to meet demand. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/68 "2019-01-16T01:53:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [The yearly salary of a migrant worker-$7,500](https://careertrend.com/the-yearly-salary-of-a-migrant-worker-13655207.html)…before taxes. Take your 10% off the top, cut that in half, then _you_ tell _me_ where they sleep and what they eat. > Holy shit-at least when they pull this on prisoners they provide room and board. :rolleyes: Idk where you got $7500 from but > **[Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job](https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/)** > > Trump's immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it's worsening a desperate labor shortage. > **[Low Wages - NFWM](https://nfwm.org/farm-workers/farm-worker-issues/low-wages/)** > >   Background Take Action How Much Do Farm Workers Earn? Job Security The Piece Rate Learn More    Background https://youtu.be/r4FO7CRl6kY In the words of Cesar Chavez: “(Farm workers) are involved in the planting and the cultivation... Looks like between minimum wage and about $15hr. Some people fully expect 25 percent of America to live on this. All the farms i know of have temporary housing for their migrant workers. They certainly aren’t expected to commute. Most provide at least lunch, since the logistics of them getting lunch some other way would be quite a challenge. All in all I’d say they have a much easier time living on 7.50 an hour for 90 days while being provided housing than a citizen who lives here and still has to pay rent and utilities. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/69 "2019-01-16T02:06:08Z")
Rather, idk where career trend got 7500 from. All they say is, “it is estimated…” But not by whom. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/70 "2019-01-16T02:06:27Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Idk where you got $7500 from but > > [Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Los Angeles Times](https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/) > > [Low Wages - NFWM](http://nfwm.org/resources/low-wages/) > > Looks like between minimum wage and about $15hr. > > Some people fully expect 25 percent of America to live on this. > > All the farms i know of have temporary housing for their migrant workers. They certainly aren’t expected to commute. Most provide at least lunch, since the logistics of them getting lunch some other way would be quite a challenge. > > All in all I’d say they have a much easier time living on 7.50 an hour for 90 days while being provided housing than a citizen who lives here and still has to pay rent and utilities. Well, when they are working their pay isnt half bad, but many do not work year around. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/71 "2019-01-16T02:29:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, when they are working their pay isnt half bad, but many do not work year around. Why confuse the o.p. with facts? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/72 "2019-01-16T02:37:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, when they are working their pay isnt half bad, but many do not work year around. Yeah, I mean, in the context of the OPs suggestion though. It doesn’t seem like a terrible idea except… I don’t know how the system is set up currently for a non-citizen migrant farm worker. So I can’t compare to what it’s like now. How hard is it currently to get a temporary visa? How easy is it to overstay it? ( I imagine this part is easy thus the sort of deposit suggestion) The only way I can think of to give them the rest of their money on return would be at the border. I can only imagine the cesspool of scammers, thugs, and unscrupulous sales people waiting on the other side to take advantage of workers coming home with $7000. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/73 "2019-01-16T02:49:53Z")
I like BigTs statement, the only way to really curb illegal immigration way down is to allow legal immigration to meet the demand. I would put it more like make it more practical to do legally than illegally. That usually requires both facilitating access and enforcing restrictions. Which I guess is why the topic is devisive… What’s the best combination… ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/74 "2019-01-16T05:44:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It would not be a illegal crossing, and they would not live in the shadows, they were be here on a migrant worker visa. They could/must enter through traditional ports of entry, no wall scaling equipment needed. Aside from all the other problems with your proposal, let’s not overlook the damn wall itself. Structural issues, flooding, and crap: > **[Engineer believes that effing wall is also effing logistically unsound](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/13/1825856/-Engineer-believes-that-effing-wall-is-also-effing-logistically-unsound?utm_campaign=trending)** > > Surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but we may have another big argument against Trump’s precious border wall. An engineer who is an expert on how walls are supposed to work peered into the guts of Trump’s plan—and concluded it’s a loser. > > ... Eminent domain destroying people’s houses (on the Merkin side): > **[Trump’s wall needs private property. But some Texans won’t give up their land...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trumps-border-wall-would-need-private-property-but-texas-landowners-plan-to-dig-in-for-lengthy-legal-fight/2019/01/10/d7e4cba8-1443-11e9-803c-4ef28312c8b9_story.html?utm_term=.f00ca0bae593&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1)** > > Long before Trump proposed a wall, the government’s desire for a border fence set off court cases over governmental assertions of eminent domain, as the structure would cut through private property. Environmental damage: > **[Trump's Wall Could Cause Serious Environmental Damage](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trumps-wall-could-cause-serious-environmental-damage/)** > > The effects of building a massive concrete wall range from increased emissions to blocked wildlife migration routes And when the ends of the proposed wall reach the edges of the beaches, what then? Well…swim around. Boat around. > **[Image tagged in trump](https://imgflip.com/i/1impg9)** > > An image tagged trump ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/75 "2019-01-16T07:15:01Z")
As for the argument that walls simply don’t work against immigration…idk one only need look at the Berlin Wall to see otherwise. 12ft tall and it changed the emigration out of east Germany from tens of thousands per month to only about 5000 over 30 years. So the whole innefctive argument is kind of shot to shit in my mind. Body’s of water as natural barriers… Those have proven effective for thousands of years. I haven’t really decided whether I like the wall or not but the innefective argument is nonsense. There may be very good argument’s against it but to be honest each of the articles linked are extremely weak. A civil engineer who seems to talk nonsense and mostly about some kinda environmental negative that must be there ,she’s not even sure what. Problems with eminent domain… These have sprang up in every use of it probably ever and yet it’s used constantly. Miilions of miles of linear structures have In fact been built through it’s use. Even the scientific American article is mostly if not entirely speculation without so much as an actual case study. It shouldn’t be hard to get proof of impacts on migration for the existing sections but all I see there is some scarce anectodal evidence… Animals have been spotted along the fence…well no kidding. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/76 "2019-01-16T12:49:06Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > As for the argument that walls simply don’t work against immigration…idk one only need look at the Berlin Wall to see otherwise. > > 12ft tall and it changed the emigration out of east Germany from tens of thousands per month to only about 5000 over 30 years. [Bollocks.](https://alphahistory.com/coldwar/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/crosssection.jpg) Machine guns, towers, tank traps, etc. Not exactly what Trump is proposing. Plus it was only 90 miles long. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/77 "2019-01-16T14:34:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > That depends on if they are going to the US to subsist for the 3 months, or are they trying to earn the equivalent of their years salary in Mexico in 3 months in the US? > > My understanding is most are going to work in the US not for subsistence but for the opportunity to make a lot (comparatively) in a short amount of time. While what they make may go a long way back in Mexico, while you’re in the US you need to pay US prices, not back-home prices. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/78 "2019-01-16T14:43:54Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I like BigTs statement, the only way to really curb illegal immigration way down is to allow legal immigration to meet the demand. > > I would put it more like make it more practical to do legally than illegally. > > That usually requires both facilitating access and enforcing restrictions. Which I guess is why the topic is devisive… What’s the best combination… Spain managed to chop down illegal immigration from Latin America to almost nothing by 1) already having legal methods to immigrate and 2) pointing them to people who were inmigrating illegally due to misinformation. We still have a lot of problems regarding other sources though, and the causes combine both a) having less options to migrate legally and b) not having as easy a way to inform people as when they already watch our public television. We also do not have “work permits” separate from “residence permits”: the paperwork is still a maze, but it’s simpler than where “right to live here” and “right to work” are separate. No limited work permits, no work permits linked to a specific job; a residence permit may still be temporary, but whether permanent or temporary it always includes the right to work (if you’re a child or otherwise part of a ‘special group’, the restrictions which apply are the same as for a national who’s a member of that same group). Not only does this mean simpler options, it means the possibility of someone working under the table while being otherwise ‘legal’ is a matter of taxes, not inmigration law: the option to tell an employee “you’ll continue working here, but without a work permit” does not exist as it does in the US. Conversely, if someone who’s in the country temporarily or illegally gets a long-term job, their employer can “legalize” them (the fact that they found a job means their skills are needed). ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/79 "2019-01-16T15:23:12Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > As for the argument that walls simply don’t work against immigration…idk one only need look at the Berlin Wall to see otherwise. First off, if your defense boils down to, “Hey, it worked for East Berlin!” you may need to reevaluate what you’re trying to defend. Secondly, different animal. The Berlin wall was TWO large walls, tons of razorwire and guard dogs and other impediments, and 24-hour, shoot-on-sight guards posted across the entire length. It didn’t deter immigration because it was difficult to surmount – it deterred immigration because trying to cross it was a likely death sentence. It was also less than a fifth of the length of the minimal needed length of Trump’s wall or a twentieth of the length of the actual border. The US does NOT have the political will to build anything comparable, structurally. They’ll build a heavy-duty fence or a low-quality concrete wall, and I guarantee that it will have compromising damage within months. The only good that would come from building this wall will be the moment of catharsis when Mexicans and Americans tear it down sooner than later. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/80 "2019-01-16T15:35:13Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Secondly, different animal. The Berlin wall was TWO large walls, tons of razorwire and guard dogs and other impediments, and 24-hour, shoot-on-sight guards posted across the entire length. It didn’t deter immigration because it was difficult to surmount – it deterred immigration because trying to cross it was a likely death sentence. > > It was also less than a fifth of the length of the minimal needed length of Trump’s wall or a twentieth of the length of the actual border. In addition to a crackdown on travel visas, which Latin American countries have no reason to enforce, and would massively hurt the American tourism industry if America put in place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=5)