# The kanicbird boarder wall solution, and Mexico will pay for it **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 15, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800 "2019-01-15T15:06:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/81 "2019-01-16T18:53:36Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > As for the argument that walls simply don’t work against immigration…idk one only need look at the Berlin Wall to see otherwise. > > 12ft tall and it changed the emigration out of east Germany from tens of thousands per month to only about 5000 over 30 years. > > So the whole innefctive argument is kind of shot to shit in my mind. > > Body’s of water as natural barriers… Those have proven effective for thousands of years. > I haven’t really decided whether I like the wall or not but the innefective argument is nonsense. > There may be very good argument’s against it but to be honest each of the articles linked are extremely weak. > > A civil engineer who seems to talk nonsense and mostly about some kinda environmental negative that must be there ,she’s not even sure what. > > Problems with eminent domain… These have sprang up in every use of it probably ever and yet it’s used constantly. Miilions of miles of linear structures have In fact been built through it’s use. > > Even the scientific American article is mostly if not entirely speculation without so much as an actual case study. It shouldn’t be hard to get proof of impacts on migration for the existing sections but all I see there is some scarce anectodal evidence… Animals have been spotted along the fence…well no kidding. I doubt that you would be so cavalier about eminent domain destroying houses if it were your home being destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/82 "2019-01-16T19:22:22Z")
Monarch butterflies are near extinction, even though it hasn’t received much press covfefe. There’s a sanctuary for them, which happens to be right on the border. [So let’s bulldoze it and build a wall there.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/12/12/butterfly-sanctuary-border-wall/) ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/83 "2019-01-16T21:16:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Monarch butterflies are near extinction, even though it hasn’t received much press covfefe. There’s a sanctuary for them, which happens to be right on the border. [So let’s bulldoze it and build a wall there.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/12/12/butterfly-sanctuary-border-wall/) Dang critters–let 'em move somewhere else if they don’t like the wall. Why do monarch butterflies hate America? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/84 "2019-01-16T21:20:49Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Dang critters–let 'em move somewhere else if they don’t like the wall. Why do monarch butterflies hate America? We’re a democratic republic, not a monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/85 "2019-01-16T22:08:31Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > First off, if your defense boils down to, “Hey, it worked for East Berlin!” you may need to reevaluate what you’re trying to defend. > > Secondly, different animal. The Berlin wall was TWO large walls, tons of razorwire and guard dogs and other impediments, and 24-hour, shoot-on-sight guards posted across the entire length. It didn’t deter immigration because it was difficult to surmount – it deterred immigration because trying to cross it was a likely death sentence. > > It was also less than a fifth of the length of the minimal needed length of Trump’s wall or a twentieth of the length of the actual border. > > The US does NOT have the political will to build anything comparable, structurally. They’ll build a heavy-duty fence or a low-quality concrete wall, and I guarantee that it will have compromising damage within months. > > The only good that would come from building this wall will be the moment of catharsis when Mexicans and Americans tear it down sooner than later. All functional walls ever do one thing, slow people down, hopefully enough to catch them or whatever your intention is. Same for castles, same for houses, same for military bases and FOBs. The Berlin Wall worked because the wall made the patrols and guns effective. It wouldn’t have worked if it were merely patrols and guns. If you look at current border fence sections they are much the same as pre fourth gen Berlin Wall. Fence, razor wire,. No man’s land, another fence. Yes it was only 90 miles long but ut also went up essentially overnight in it’s early versions. Of course slapping up a wall and abandoning it is innefective. You have to patrol it too. These days that could consist of mostly monitored cameras, but it would make it very easy to slow people down enough to catch them. Whether or not a wall is a solution, idk it’s beyond me really. I’m not in touch with the immigration system enough to know. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/86 "2019-01-16T22:10:13Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I doubt that you would be so cavalier about eminent domain destroying houses if it were your home being destroyed. Im not saying anything about it being right or wrong, just that the history of it’s successful use is well documented. Rarely does anyone really win. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/87 "2019-01-16T22:21:51Z")
So we’re still hewing to “The Berlin Wall was awesome” as an argumentative position, then. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/88 "2019-01-16T22:23:41Z")
Hell, idk its even beneficial to stop or slow immigration or whether it should be more encouraged, I just know that physical barriers slow people down and let you secure an area far more effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/89 "2019-01-16T22:28:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So we’re still hewing to “The Berlin Wall was awesome” as an argumentative position, then. Idk about awesome, but extremely effective for certain. As most defended walls have been throughout oh, all of recorded history. Walls work, or we simply wouldn’t use them. The system behind defending a wall is really about it’s only weakness, barring you know, flight and very heavy weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/90 "2019-01-16T22:30:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Monarch butterflies are near extinction, even though it hasn’t received much press covfefe. There’s a sanctuary for them, which happens to be right on the border. [So let’s bulldoze it and build a wall there.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/12/12/butterfly-sanctuary-border-wall/) The entire Lower Rio Grande is [intensely biodiverse,](https://www.fws.gov/refuge/lower_rio_grande_valley/wildlife_habitat.html) home to seventeen endangered species. Nature tourism is [a large driver of the area economy.](http://www.rvsouthtexas.com/things-to-do/) Turns out it’s richer and more accessible than I knew. I think I’ll plan a trip. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/91 "2019-01-16T22:36:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Monarch butterflies are near extinction, even though it hasn’t received much press covfefe. There’s a sanctuary for them, which happens to be right on the border. [So let’s bulldoze it and build a wall there.](https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/12/12/butterfly-sanctuary-border-wall/) Out of genuine curiousity, what impact would a wall have on monarch butterfly migration if any? I get this sanctuary is more like land or trees or what have you that they likely rest in so I could see the impact there. Anything beyond that though? I mean my immediate thought is no, but maybe I’m overlooking something there. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/92 "2019-01-16T22:40:30Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Idk about awesome, but extremely effective for certain. > > As most defended walls have been throughout oh, all of recorded history. > > Walls work, or we simply wouldn’t use them. > > The system behind defending a wall is really about it’s only weakness, barring you know, flight and very heavy weaponry. By “most defended” you of course mean “heavily manned by thousands of people willing to murder people for trespassing”. If you don’t have that, you don’t have an effective border wall. Of course, there’s one other huge problem with this moronic border wall concept - its a Maginot Line. Which is to say it’s a big fancy wall that doesn’t stop anything because it’s easy to go around it. Not just over the water - though that’s _also_ a problem the Berlin wall didn’t face. The route which most illegals use to gain entry to american soil is [overstaying their visas](https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us). No wall can possibly stop or even slightly impede that - even a wall that’s gloriously steeped in murder, tyranny, and millions of dollars of ongoing expense. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/93 "2019-01-16T22:40:55Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Out of genuine curiousity, what impact would a wall have on monarch butterfly migration if any? > > I get this sanctuary is more like land or trees or what have you that they likely rest in so I could see the impact there. Anything beyond that though? > > I mean my immediate thought is no, but maybe I’m overlooking something there. Read the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/94 "2019-01-16T23:12:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Read the cite. It doesn’t say, other than the volume of butterfly’s not living there would be proportionate to the amount of acreage in the swath that would cross through it. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/95 "2019-01-16T23:25:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > By “most defended” you of course mean “heavily manned by thousands of people willing to murder people for trespassing”. > > If you don’t have that, you don’t have an effective border wall. > Of course, there’s one other huge problem with this moronic border wall concept - its a Maginot Line. Which is to say it’s a big fancy wall that doesn’t stop anything because it’s easy to go around it. > > Not just over the water - though that’s _also_ a problem the Berlin wall didn’t face. The route which most illegals use to gain entry to american soil is [overstaying their visas](https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us). No wall can possibly stop or even slightly impede that - even a wall that’s gloriously steeped in murder, tyranny, and millions of dollars of ongoing expense. Most defended walls as in the majority of. And having to travel to the coast to attempt to take a water route is quite an impediment. And no it doesn’t take people willing to kill on site. It takes people in this case to go aprehend anyone attempting to cross it. The more elaborate, the longer they have to go catch them. Physical barriers cut down tremendously on the amount of manpower required to secure an area. Imagine trying to keep a prison under control In an open field. Whether a wall is an effective tool or not is not a question in my mind. My question is how pertinent is doing the job? What are the pros and cons of having a defended southern border? Agreed, it does absolutely nothing to prevent overstaying a visa, which I imagine it takes at least some sort of background check to get in the first place, so at least people who overstay a visa are likely not any more dangerous than the general population. I think an easier employer sponsorship program like the guy brought up about Spain is probably a good tool. I believe we thrive on immigrants who come here to work. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/96 "2019-01-16T23:28:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So we’re still hewing to “The Berlin Wall was awesome” as an argumentative position, then. “Mister Trump, don’t build this wall!” ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/97 "2019-01-16T23:34:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Mister Trump, don’t build this wall!” Lol, mr. Gorbetrump 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/98 "2019-01-16T23:38:17Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Most defended walls as in the majority of. > And having to travel to the coast to attempt to take a water route is quite an impediment. > > And no it doesn’t take people willing to kill on site. > It takes people in this case to go aprehend anyone attempting to cross it. The more elaborate, the longer they have to go catch them. Physical barriers cut down tremendously on the amount of manpower required to secure an area. Imagine trying to keep a prison under control In an open field. > Whether a wall is an effective tool or not is not a question in my mind. > My question is how pertinent is doing the job? > What are the pros and cons of having a defended southern border? When you say “defended southern border” I can’t help but read that as “defended from actual threats”. Which means that to me what you’re asking is, “What are the odds that Mexico will send its national military as an attacking/invading force?” I’m thinking the odds of that are low, but who knows? Maybe Trump’ll nuke them or something. > [@Littleman](#): > > Agreed, it does absolutely nothing to prevent overstaying a visa, which I imagine it takes at least some sort of background check to get in the first place, so at least people who overstay a visa are likely not any more dangerous than the general population. Literally every reliable source I’ve heard (which doesn’t include racist cockwaffles) has informed me that illegal aliens are, consistently, less dangerous than the general population. This would be because if they get arrested the consequences are _much_ harsher, simply because losing your life and home is a tragedy, and losing it for your entire family is worse. Illegal immigrants, by and large, are on their best behavior. If we were actually worried about the immigrants being dangerous we’d close off all legal immigration and then try to encourage them _all_ to come here illegally, as an oppressed and dehumanized underclass. Of course nobody in any position of power is actually worried about immigrants being dangerous - no matter what they say to the contrary. > [@Littleman](#): > > I think an easier employer sponsorship program like the guy brought up about Spain is probably a good tool. > I believe we thrive on immigrants who come here to work. I think that america is absolutely reliant on immigrants from Mexico. Our agriculture industry has always been dependent on cheap manpower, and it has never been able to draw that manpower from its longtime residents. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/99 "2019-01-16T23:50:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When you say “defended southern border” I can’t help but read that as “defended from actual threats”. Which means that to me what you’re asking is, “What are the odds that Mexico will send its national military as an attacking/invading force?” > > I’m thinking the odds of that are low, but who knows? Maybe Trump’ll nuke them or something. > > Literally every reliable source I’ve heard (which doesn’t include racist cockwaffles) has informed me that illegal aliens are, consistently, less dangerous than the general population. This would be because if they get arrested the consequences are _much_ harsher, simply because losing your life and home is a tragedy, and losing it for your entire family is worse. Illegal immigrants, by and large, are on their best behavior. > > If we were actually worried about the immigrants being dangerous we’d close off all legal immigration and then try to encourage them _all_ to come here illegally, as an oppressed and dehumanized underclass. Of course nobody in any position of power is actually worried about immigrants being dangerous - no matter what they say to the contrary. > > I think that america is absolutely reliant on immigrants from Mexico. Our agriculture industry has always been dependent on cheap manpower, and it has never been able to draw that manpower from its longtime residents. That first part quite exaggerated, I’m unconvinced there’s a threat is what I’m trying to say. The rest makes sense. I’d say if anything I lean well towards making legal immigration easier. As the wall goes, idk… But my main point here is if you’re against it, I think the best argument might be it’s just not needed. Environmental might be a good argument, but I haven’t seen any stronger arguments than the usual ones against any kind of development on that front. Not an effective tool is a very poor argument IMO. Like alcohol for instance though, if the government wants to control it, best bet is make it accessible and create enforcement at the same time. So assuming we want to have some kind of immigration control how do we best enforce and how do we best give access are the questions I would be asking. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800/100 "2019-01-16T23:57:18Z")
America is reliant on cheap labor in general, not just from Mexico, but that’s another point I tried to make clear in another thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-boarder-wall-solution-and-mexico-will-pay-for-it/827800.md?page=6)