# The kanicbird konundrum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802 "2011-11-22T22:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/181 "2011-11-25T20:28:22Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Trying to avoid saying things that might push a nutjob over the edge is not “treating.” +1 If k-bird is a troll, which is what I think, then he should go suck-start a shotgun. If he’s not, he needs help, and providing him with a community of ready enablers who tell him he’s normal and nothing is wrong is probably a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/182 "2011-11-25T20:29:34Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Yeah, he’s past an edge all right. But there’s another edge this bozo could teeter over and on the other side is a mall full of dead shoppers with demon faces. Fayetteville, NC, today. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/183 "2011-11-25T23:26:48Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Fayetteville, NC, today. Well, [nobody got hurt](http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10422570/) and remember there’s lots of great bargains to be had. _"Cross Creek Mall spokeswoman Tammy Hopkins said…“From what we understand, obviously, it was an isolated incident, an unusual incident,” she said. “It doesn’t seem to have dampened the shopping spirit at the mall.”_ So there. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/184 "2011-11-26T00:02:26Z")
I will not treat kanicbird with kid gloves. People who act half as ridiculous as he does are just called jackasses. Why doesn’t that make him a jackass times two, instead of a pity case? He’s taking bullheaded closed mindedness to a new level. I don’t care why, I just wish he’d either go away, or stay in the forums he belongs in. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/185 "2011-11-26T01:27:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This particular nutjob is broadcasting from so far past the edge that he couldn’t find his way back with Google Maps, a team of Sherpa guides and Pocahontas herself. Trying to avoid pushing him over the edge is like trying to avoid making water wet. While I totally agree with the sentiment, I’m thinking that you’re thinking of Sacagawea, rather than Pocohontas. I can’t see any underage indian princesses volunteering their heads to spare **kanicbird** , sadly. I think the auras are just all wrong for that. That said, Sacagawea may also be severely tempted to lead him off the nearest canyon and go enjoy her baby in peace, so that may not fly either. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/186 "2011-11-26T01:54:54Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > If k-bird is a troll, which is what I think, then he should go suck-start a shotgun. [Moderating] Wishing harm (even self-harm) on other posters is against the board rules. Please don’t do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/187 "2011-11-26T02:26:50Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Dude! This is WHY I keep bringing up Scientology. You refuse the science behind modern psychology, and you think everybody except you and yours is “delusional”. That’s Scientology in a nutshell! > > You can’t pick and choose scientific theories. That’s what the the global warming deniers do. Face it, you are a disingenuous hypocrite that preaches science, but denies it when it doesn’t fit your preconceived hateful notions. You’re a fucking bigot, and your are not going to allow any amount of scientific research to prove you otherwise. I quite agree that one cannot ‘pick and choose scientific theories’. Now try to see if you can understand the next sentence… _The DSM is not a scientific theory_. Did you actually understand that? Do you know what ‘science’ is? Psychology is a science, albeit still a fairly primitive one compared to, say, physics or chemistry. Psych_iatry_, which is not psychology (hint, it’s spelled differently), is not a science, but at best a technology, or heuristic set of practices. You call out ‘hypocrites’ for cherry-picking science, but you do not appear to understand what science is. You slander those of us who declare religious belief delusional as wannabe scientologists. You then proceed to treat the DSM as some sort of religious authority to state your case. Not one for self-examination, are you? You have also had it explained to you that earlier versions of the DSM categorised homosexuality as a mental illness. Does this support your assertion that the DSM is some kind of hardcore “don’t fuck with”-science tome, up there with Newton’s Principia or Darwin’s Origin? If so I would appreciate your scholarly account of how _scientific_ understanding changed in the meantime. (_not_ political sensibilities, please) Incidentally I note that for all your cheerleading ‘DSM says religion’s cool’ (as if that would settle the case and show us atheist fundamentalists for the bigots that we apparently are), you have not provided the relevant passages. I’d give you a pass on that, as my own attempts to find them keep meeting with expensive subscription paywalls, the bloodsucking bar-stewards. I don’t doubt the DSM (which version by the way? DSM-5 [not V] which you referred to earlier, isn’t out yet) has some ‘let’s-keep-religious-er-hypotheses-cough-out-of-this’ boilerplate. A psychiatrist friend of mine told me it did once over some drinks - a level of verification that, meagre though it is, beats that of hearing some vitriol from a guy on a message board called ‘A Monkey with a Gun’ who acts like… well… he says. Trouble is, what I lack trust in, is not the EXISTENCE of such apologetics in the DSM, but your interpretation of them. So step up to the plate with that, please. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/188 "2011-11-26T04:50:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Wishing harm (even self-harm) on other posters is against the board rules. Please don’t do this again. > [/Moderating] Roger that. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/189 "2011-11-26T04:55:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, [nobody got hurt](http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10422570/) and remember there’s lots of great bargains to be had. > > _"Cross Creek Mall spokeswoman Tammy Hopkins said…“From what we understand, obviously, it was an isolated incident, an unusual incident,” she said. “It doesn’t seem to have dampened the shopping spirit at the mall.”_ > > So there. I used to live there. It’s not an isolated anything, lol. Google ‘fayetteville NC shooting’ and see how much turns up, then look at the population of the town… it’s crazy! There’s a reason locals call it Fayette-nam. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/190 "2011-11-26T05:10:50Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Stick your nose into one and there will be. That was pretty funny. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/191 "2011-11-26T05:17:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you leaving out the very real possibility that the person that this thread is about is nothing but a shit-spewing troll? This possibility has been mentioned a few times, but I think not. If he is, he’s the most patient and disciplined troll we’ve ever had on this board. The little bursts of complete insanity are tonally—if not logically,—consistent, and haven’t culminated in a quick mod-suicide as one would expect from a pretender. It’s uncomfortable to accept, but I think he’s serious. I’m not a doctor, but you “diagnosing over the Internet!” squealers can chew my balloon knot. If \*\*kanicbird \*\*isn’t delusional I’ll do a flaming shot from our grease trap. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/192 "2011-11-26T07:56:00Z")
That and last I checked, “batshit” isn’t an actual diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/193 "2011-11-26T11:00:43Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > The whole field of psychology updates that constantly. To deny its validity is to deny the whole field. Your whole point falls apart right here. What you are saying is like saying that physics would fall apart if it were found that certain physical constants haven’t in the past been measured properly, or something. The DSM is just a bunch of findings. To suggest that the whole discipline may fall apart just because some of the current findings of the discipline may be wrong or need refinement is a joke, and suggests you don’t really understand science at all. Science is all about revising and updating latest knowledge and doing so doesn’t deny the field. And frankly your whole “I’m such a hero because I’m able to use my asshole-dar to detect assholes and have the gigantic brass balls to dare to call them out” sounds like you have delusions yourself. There are some people in this thread who disagree with you and are doing things you don’t like. Get the fuck over it you self important wanker. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/194 "2011-11-26T11:50:59Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Your garment’s in a bunch because someone upthread equated religious belief with insanity and you, as a believer, take that personally. Whether you like it or not, religion requires one to suspend a certain amount of belief and subscribe to a regional mythology while denying mythologies that contradict your own. The DSM-V refrains from commenting on religious subscription to a belief in magical beings, invisible spirits, and the ritual simulation of cannibalism (except in cases of extreme fanaticism) because to recommend treatment for adherents would raise a political shitstorm of Biblical proportion. I, as a non-believer (lifelong atheist), do not take it personally when someone equates religious belief with insanity. However, I still think it’s a rather dumb and silly thing to do, and mischaracterizes the nature of mental illness. It’s easy to see that such arguments are basically nonsense by considering the fact that the DSM-V also does not comment on adherence to various popular superstitions or astrology, for example. Not because its authors are afraid that recommending treatment for such beliefs would raise a political shitstorm, but simply because such beliefs, like religious belief, do not in themselves constitute mental illness. Mental illness as typically defined is “a psychological or behavioral pattern _generally associated with subjective distress or disability_ that occurs in an individual, and which is _not a part of normal development or culture_” (emphasis added). It’s not about whether a particular belief can be scientifically validated: it’s about whether a particular belief is reasonable compared to cultural norms and doesn’t impair successful emotional and psychological functioning. Annoying as it may seem to people who take great pride in being rational, the fact is that insanity and irrationality are not the same thing (although of course insanity generally involves various **extreme** forms of irrationality). Just because the particular epistemological mindset known as rational materialism holds that it is wrong to maintain beliefs about the natural world for which there is no clearly supported material evidence doesn’t mean that people who **do** maintain such beliefs are actually insane. Would you really want our society to redefine mental illness that way? Speaking as a fairly hardcore rationalist materialist atheist myself, I’m not at all interested in having my worldview imposed on society as a whole as the only acceptable norm, or declaring that all beliefs that are not justified within that worldview are tantamount to mental illness. Smart-aleck quips by fellow atheists about the laughable nuttiness of belief in invisible sky fairies are understandable (if rather tedious) reactions to the unkind and unfair ways that atheists are often treated by theists, so I generally just roll my eyes and pass over them in silence. But serious declarations by fellow atheists that culturally and socially entrenched manifestations of belief in the supernatural actually ought to be pathologized and medically suppressed in the name of reason make me **damn** nervous. I don’t like religious tyrannies and I don’t want to be part of one. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/195 "2011-11-26T12:22:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …someone equates religious belief with insanity. . Would it change your argument simply to change “equates” to “likens to”? Because I have no problem claiming that religious belief is simply a lesser form of mental illness, or a sub-species of it, or akin to it in numerous substantial ways. Most of my issues with religious belief, however, concern the LACK of genuine religious belief rather than its presence. Most people who identify with a religion don’t actually believe, IMO, in it but are seeking an identity for cultural reasons, ethnic reasons, racist reasons, sentimental reasons, etc. and claim to have some (usually vague) genuinely religious beliefs–I have real issues with these people because they self-identify for their own protection rather than for some important principle of faith. I’d guess that most “religious” people haven’t really thought about their belief systems very thoroughly, and don’t care to, and (if you put their feet into the fire) would probably reject some of the beliefs they now defend, often quite angrily. These people, a majority of those who identify as “religious,” are IMO quite sane. Cowardly, most of them, unimaginative, to be sure, fearful and intellectually limited, certainly, but entirely sane. True religious believers, OTOH, strain the capacity of sanity. The minority of believers who actually believe in the existence of God, who thinks that miracles are historically common and certainly possible given God’s presence, are at best questionably sane–some of them are certainly quite insane by anyone’s measure. But they are only a small fraction of the religious community, most of whom are simply hypocrites in my estimation. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/196 "2011-11-26T14:57:01Z")
You answered the original conundrum in your own post: > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not about whether a particular belief can be scientifically validated: it’s about whether a particular belief is reasonable compared to cultural norms and doesn’t impair successful emotional and psychological functioning. If not for the sake of this argument, I wouldn’t bother calling religious belief irrational, as what people do with their free time and private thoughts are none of my concern. It is only when religious belief infiltrates political decisions, or interferes with the beliefs of others, (or leads a drunk driver to excuse his actions), that I even care to consider religious belief at all. Outside of political interference, religion rarely affects my life, and I’m not opposed to attending church. Most of the time, I consider the gift of religious platitude from acquaintances and strangers to be sincere, and appreciated as much as any other display of kindness and good manners. However, I’ve had coworkers and classmates who subscribe to astrology so wholeheartedly that they decline to date or interact with a person bearing a clashing astrological profile, or they use an astrological profile to excuse or support some undesirable behavior. And this didn’t change when it was discovered that many astrological signs were off by several days. Same for persons subscribing to more conventional religious belief: when prayer and wishes lead to inaction, I would say adherence has crossed the line from irrational to insane. If prayer rather than action is used as a problem solving measure, the ice is getting thin. A friend’s cousin died from a treatable cancer last year, because she, her family, and congregation chose to pray for a cure rather than follow prescribed treatment. The answer from those who prayed? God must have needed an angel. Ah, more than an 11 year old girl needs her mother to help her learn and grow? Somewhere out there is an orphaned little girl who was abandoned for no other reason than superstition. I could list more examples of my real life experience with religious fervor that crosses the line into potentially treatable mental illness, but we should all be familiar with examples. It happens, and not infrequently. Confirmation bias also seems to weigh more heavily in the mind of the devout: Mary’s prognosis was bad, but we prayed and she was healed, therefore prayer works. I wanted the promotion and asked God for it and got the job, therefore God is Good. A survivor was found buried in the rubble 11 days after the earthquake, therefore God was watching out for them. Persons prone to superstition seem prone to other forms of magical thinking. Again, not a diagnosable problem or one that needs addressing, because it is a common attitude. But what happens if you replace “God” with “Jellybeans”? We prayed to a jar of jellybeans and Mary got better! I got that promotion after praying to jellybeans, therefore I will continue to ask jellybeans for things I desire. Jellybeans must have kept that survivor alive, jellybeans are Good! If the discerning factor between sane belief and insane is the name or visage of the god in question, well, that answer isn’t good enough. And “because a lot of people have a concept of God-the-Creator and Father. But belief in Omnipotent Jellybeans: not-so-much…” well, that’s not a good enough answer, either. None of us have a definitive answer as to why adherence to a particular mythology is socially and clinically acceptable and another is not, and there isn’t a book big enough to analyze and support that argument. But we can unequivocally state that when magical thinking replaces rational action, medical intervention is recommended. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/197 "2011-11-26T16:10:26Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Serious question: how about people who speak in tongues or heal people? Is that delusional, or just a religious “belief”. It seems stronger than the latter, but not necessarily require one to actually see someone/thing that isn’t there. That’s a fari question and I don’t really have more than a WAG for it. I have no experience with charismatic sects, other than second hand stories. I suspect a lot of those people are going along to get along. “Lie down on the floor and babbling nonsense gets you social approval? Watch me babble the shit out of some nonsense.” However some people may go into a genuine trance states. I seem to recall some stories about how meditation and religious ecstasy can alter brain activity, but I can’t really cite them so I don’t know. As far as healing goes, there’s probably a strong psychosomatic effect/placebo thing going on. Also outright cynical fakery, especially on the part of wealthier healers. Sorry for the delay in replying. Been away. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/198 "2011-11-26T16:40:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I, as a non-believer (lifelong atheist), do not take it personally when someone equates religious belief with insanity. However, I still think it’s a rather dumb and silly thing to do, and mischaracterizes the nature of mental illness. > > It’s easy to see that such arguments are basically nonsense by considering the fact that the DSM-V also does not comment on adherence to various popular superstitions or astrology, for example. Not really; they are faced with the problem that astrology and other such popular superstitions are just as baseless and often as crazy as religion; if they come up with a standard that declares them irrational or a mental illness, then they by implication condemn religion as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/199 "2011-11-27T12:11:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not really; they are faced with the problem that astrology and other such popular superstitions are just as baseless and often as crazy as religion; if they come up with a standard that declares them irrational or a mental illness, then they by implication condemn religion as well. You’re still missing the fundamental point that “irrational” != “mental illness”. An idea may be “baseless” or “crazy”, in the sense of being not conclusively supported by any material evidence, without being an indicator of actual insanity. People who pride themselves on being very rational like to think that rationality and sanity are the same thing, but mental health professionals don’t define sanity that way. And frankly, coming up with quasi-conspiracy theories to “explain” why mental health professionals refuse to define sanity that way (“ooh, they’re afraid of the political shitstorm that would ensue if they did! they know the scientific TRUTH about religious belief being insane but they HIDE it!” uh-huh, sure) doesn’t strike me as a particularly rational thing to do. Like it or not, there are important effective differences between holding irrational beliefs that don’t impair your happiness or your ability to function in society, and holding irrational beliefs that do impair you in those ways. Those differences are why religious belief _per se_ is not considered a form of mental illness. Sure, as various posters have noted, religious belief exists on a **spectrum** of thought processes that at their most irrational extreme certainly do merge into insanity. But, as I pointed out earlier, pretty much **every** human belief or preoccupation exists on a spectrum of thought processes that at their extreme merge into insanity. So there’s no valid reason to single out religious belief as especially insane in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802/200 "2011-11-27T12:40:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And frankly, coming up with quasi-conspiracy theories to “explain” why mental health professionals refuse to define sanity that way (“ooh, they’re afraid of the political shitstorm that would ensue if they did! they know the scientific TRUTH about religious belief being insane but they HIDE it!” uh-huh, sure) doesn’t strike me as a particularly rational thing to do. Nonsense; as pointed out already, they did the same thing with homosexuality, until the political winds started blowing the other way. That’s like calling the assumption that a politician with a history of corruption can be bribed a “conspiracy theory”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kanicbird-konundrum/603802.md?page=11)