The King's Speech - Differences between Movie and Reality

Kings had married widows before. Kings hadn’t married women with two living ex-husbands, it was simply a social scandal. Wallis Simpson was also widely believed to have been committing adultery while still married to her former husband, which further scandalized the situation.

It was a minor scandal that Henry VIII even married his first wife (Catherine of Aragon), because they were seen to have an affinity since she had been married to his older brother. However, Catherine swore up and down they never consummated the marriage and the Pope granted them a dispensation, but it was still a minor issue.

In the early 20th century it’s actually arguable that some elements of society had actually become more conservative in regard to marriage and what was seen as appropriate; especially the reactionary elements (and we are talking a time not so long after the Victorian age.)

Drat, missed that rather obvious one out from my list! :smack:

(And it was almost the first point I had planned to make…!)

The other thing to keep in mind is Henry VIII didn’t forsake the Catholic Church because he disagreed with their teachings, because he believed a King should be able to divorce at will, or even because of any real disagreement with most of mainstream Catholicism.

Henry kicked the Catholic Church out of England because he essentially would have no mortal on this earth sit above him or hold anything over him, and since the Pope was doing just that with the legitimacy of his marriage Henry decided he and England did not need the Pope.

Many of Henry’s courtiers were more firebrand/radical Protestants, and thought that Henry’s actions were going to bring about a true Protestant revolution in England. Henry even dissolved the monasteries (a move probably done because it enriched him immensely.) However, if you follow the life of Henry VIII you’ll notice that pretty much the Church he left England with was very similar to the Church it had started with. Church of England’s rituals, sacraments, customs and et cetera were extremely similar to Catholicism of that era.

Very specifically note that nothing in the Anglican Church was significantly different from the Catholic Church in regard to marriage. Just like the Catholic Church of the time, Henry’s Anglican Church did not recognize divorce and remarriage as being legitimate.

However, just like in the Catholic Church there were ways around this. In the Catholic Church divorce and remarriage were not legitimate, but if say, the Pope or one of legates agreed with your argument he could grant a special dispensation. However what you had was still typically not called a divorce, but a special type of annulment.

Just like when Henry married Catherine, an act that went against proper Catholic doctrine, the Pope could grant a dispensation if the circumstances were right. In reality of course it was all political, the Popes of that age were immensely corrupt and dispensations for such things would be granted based on geopolitical concerns. In Henry’s case, his wife had a very powerful family, and a family far closer (physically) to Rome than Henry was, and with powerful armies whose wrath the Pope did not wish to incur. There wasn’t anything especially ludicrous about Henry VIII’s desire to have his marriage to Catherine annulled. Was his technical argument ludicrous and fabricated? Of course, but Kings had done such things in the past and compliant Popes had gone along with them in the past, but in this situation other pressures on the Pope were great enough to prevent them from agreeing to the annulment.

When Henry finally rejected the papacy he did not just simply declare that his marriage to Catherine was over. He went through the channels of his new Church, of course, if his Archbishop hadn’t gone along with it he would have been executed, but for appearances sake Henry didn’t just divorce Catherine he had a lawful and appropriate annulment under the doctrines of the Anglican Church.

Anne Boleyn was executed for treason, and there was no special prohibition about an English King marrying again after being widowed. Also due to Anne Boleyn’s treason conviction I imagine (although don’t know for sure) the Anglican Church probably officially declared the marriage with Anne unlawful and void at some point and possibly ascribed it to Anne using witch craft on the King (I even believe such an argument is what initially disinherited Elizabeth.)

Jane died of natural causes and thus there was not any special dispensation required.

Catherine Howard died in the same way as Anne and following a conviction for treason, so it was dispensed in the same way.

Anne of Kleves and Henry had an annulment. Again, it went through the official and appropriate channels of the Church of England, it wasn’t just a divorce. Officially Henry and Anne never consummated their marriage and it was not valid. In this case there is even some evidence Henry and Anne of Kleves genuinely never consummated the marriage, surprising a notoriously promiscuous King like Henry would be particularly picky.

Catherine Parr of course outlived Henry, and she even married after Henry died. She was even married before, but in her case she was a widow when she married the King.

So as you can see there was nothing particularly divorce friendly about Henry’s new church. Henry didn’t seem to believe you should be able to just divorce on whim, and that’s certainly not how he interpreted scripture. He mostly agreed with the Catholic stance on divorce. He however was very good at convincing himself of the righteousness of his own situations. While opposed to divorce as a concept, he was good at convincing himself of things like his first marriage being immoral and invalid because his wife and brother actually consummated the wedding, thus making the Papal dispensation invalid. (It’s highly unlikely that happened.) With the rest of his wives that he separated from, it was following either their conviction of treasonous acts and subsequent executions, so dispensing the marriage was not a particularly difficult issue. With Anne of Kleves there was a genuine situation that probably would have been annulled without fuss by the Pope of the time, if Henry had still been in the Catholic fold.

Wow, Martin, thanks for the history lesson! That certainly clears things up. What a spectacular douche this guy sounds like.

Thank God this “Do as I say, not as I do” mentality can no longer be found among politicians of today.

There is, remember, a difference between “divorce”, which dissolves a valid marriage, which didn’t exist in English or canon law in Henry’s time, and which Henry VIII would never have thought of getting, and an annulment, which says that a valid marriage never existed in the first place, and which Henry wanted and ended up getting.

The concerns obviously with Edward were that some salacious details of the “queen’s” past would come out. Her ongoing indiscretions were added fuel. Recall that even in 1970 or 1980 there was heavy pressure on Charles to marry a “pure” woman, which apparently ruled out Camilla by the time Charles got to know her. That’s why he ended up marrying a somewhat reclusive nutbar dropout who had never had a serious relationship- because at least she was a virgin and there would not be any tabloid stories about “I remember our regiment’s wild night with the queen” (except maybe after the marriage… cue captain Mark… giddyup!)

Maybe because times have changed, maybe because she really is pure of spirit, but there have not been any such discussions around William and his choice.

Heck - if you remember the movie “Walk the Line” since we’re talking movies, a few people of strong religious feelings made very disparaging remarks about June Carter and her divorce and that was in the late 1950’s. Middle and upper class may have been pretentious hypocrites, but the very public side of the behviour was all about the pretence.

There were people back in the 1960s who thought Nelson Rockefeller lost the very important California primary in 1964 because his wife Happy gave birth a few days before. Rockefeller was a divorced man and it was said enough people in the Republican primary voted against him because of that. Ironically, it was the Ronald Reagan who became the first divorced man to be elected POTUS.

For a really juicy scandal involving a “woman of soiled repute” there was the Peggy Eaton affair, involving the Secretary of War in the Andrew Jackson administration.

Worth noting that despite the massively changed attitudes to divorce and remarriage in Britain from the 30’s to now, Charles and Camilla did not get married in church - they married in a civil ceremony in Windsor Guildhall. When Princess Anne remarried after her divorce from Mark (“Foggy”) Phillips she did marry in church but it had to be in Scotland at Crathie Church near Balmoral - the (presbyterian) Church of Scotland’s attitude to divorce is different to that of the Church of England.

I think the audience may have left with an impression that the king’s stutter was mostly cured and he was able to make live speeches without much trouble.

As someone who stutters myself, I don’t doubt that Logue helped him enormously but it was no cure. I heard a BBC interview with someone who’s father worked at the BBC. She said her he used to edit the king’s speeches to take out the stuttering for most of his life. I’m guessing that he didn’t really make many live speeches with or without Logue’s direct help.

I’ve often seen Churchill’s name on lists of “famous people who stuttered” and it was mentioned at the end of the movie but there doesn’t seem to be any real evidence of that.

I’m bothered by that “must”. What law is there that the monarch MUST follow ministerial advice? Can’t a monarch force a showdown by utilizing one of their nominal powers for read against the advice of their ministers?

I know here on the SD we have discussed many times that if the Queen doesn’t do as her ministers tell her she will either be run out of the country (James II) or beheaded (Charles I) but what if Edward VIII had told the PM that since the Queen has no power so he’s going to marry her anyways and they can all resign for all he cares.

Baldwin resigns
E.VIII dissolves Parliament (if a lot of MPs resign) and a new election is held or appoints a new PM
Baldwin is made out (by sources other than the King :wink: ) to be petty for resigning over something as minor as who the King marries.
What happens?

Or take Elizabeth II. Suppose she were to withhold her Royal Assent on a relatively minor piece of legislation? What happens? Would she have to abdicate if her ministers think the UK should spend L10,000 on a home for orphaned pussycats in Manchester but she thinks it’s a waste of money?

What happens is that there is a constitutional crisis in which public opinion will become significantly more republican. The monarchy has no real independent source of power to either enforce its will or maintain its existence in the face of popular opinion. They would essentially be handing the public a reason to get rid of them. So, upset the delicate balance of the constitutional system just to be gotten rid of?

But there is no balance. This is what I don’t get when a Constitutional crisis is discussed about UK politics. If the Monarch and House of Lords has no real power and have to do as the House of Commons tells them, then what’s the point?

And why is the assumption that the public opinion will become more Republican. Suppose the Commons decides to sell Big Ben (the bell) for L1 to Osama bin Ladin and ER II withholds Royal Assent. Can you really tell me the Brits would view that as an abuse of her power and become more Republican? Being a colonist, I would think they’d be thankful for her as a check.

The balance is that the monarchy is a figurehead. Any attempt to change that upsets the balance.

If the elected government act contrary to public opinion, there’s a safety valve – the next election. If the monarch acts contrary to public opinion, what’s the safety valve?

In the event that happened, the monarch would be declared incompetent, and a suitable regent installed. If this proved impossible, parliament would govern without the monarch

One advantage of not having a written constitution is that, in extemis, these things can be done.

Hijacking this back to the OP, are there any recordings of King George VI speaking that indicate what he actually sounded like (pre-therapy)? Contrary to all the raves about the movie, I find the stammer quite artificial sounding and contrived and I would be happy to change my mind if I could hear something like the original. Does that exist?

Well if you don’t have a written constitution, then what are you speaking of when you say “contitutional crisis”?

No written constitution doesn’t mean no constitution at all, it means that it’s a collection of laws, judicial decisions, and tradition. We could have a constitutional crisis if an action taken by the monarch, the government, or the judiciary threatened the stability of the state.

ETA- To give an example, if the Prime Minister refused to meet with the Queen, as he’s obliged to do, the Queen could dissolve parliament and insist on an election. This could well be described as a “constitutional crisis”.

Most interesting. Based on those two clips, it would seem that the movie version is an extreme caricature of the nature of the speech patterns and impediments that George VI struggled with.

In Canada when they had the kerfluffle over repatriating the constitution - at first, Pierre Trudeau decided he could go it alone and ingore the rest of the country’s objections. The supreme court eventually held that he needed “consensus” not “unanimity” to replace the British act with a Canadian cosntitution; so he eventually got it. Meanwhile, a movement had started to get the British parliament and failing that, the Queen to refuse assent to the bill implementing a go-it-alone Constitutional change. Meanwhile, the governor-general, with the delegated powers of the monarch in Canada, mused about refusing to sign a unilateral bill of the Canadian parliament.

The “refusal” is a “nuclear option”. You better be really sure you can win. I doubt that many were sympathetic with Edward’s choice of floozy, given the high venom over a relatively tame Camilla 60 years later. It can be used as a last-ditch effort to prevent a major social change that the monarch not only disagrees with, but feels a significant majority also disagree with. The monarch can even refuse to call an election, or call one unsolicited - but they have to realize that the next government(s) to come along will also consider “how can we prevent ourselves being blind-sided”?

Plus, IIRC - Edward was unpopular in many circles for his sympathies with Germany and their progressive but anti-communist government/party, and its sister party in Britain; so he wasn’t likely to get the anti-establishment vote of working class Britain. It was best for all that (a) he abdicated and (b) never reproduced.

(Side note: good definition of “consensus” - the parties that agree have to be a significant majority, and they also have to agree that the disagreeing parties do not have serious valid objections. The only group seriously disagreeing with the final consensus constitution of Canada were Quebec separatists who would never agree to anytihng constructive in the way of a Canadian constitution.)