# The Koch Bros. hit a new low -- killing a rapid-bus line in Nashville just because **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112 "2014-04-01T20:07:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/81 "2014-04-03T15:31:34Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Is anyone who opposes a climate tax reprehensible? Are you able to accept someone having a different political opinion from you without thinking they’re evil. They are not in the minds of a few, but that is only when they ignore all the problems that the experts are telling us will happen for not controlling our emissions. You can do a lot of things that appear to be good in the short run but very very bad in the long run. This tragedy of the commons also depends on the FUD that the paid minions are committed on doing and the levels of the damage they do depend in great part on the funding they get. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/82 "2014-04-03T15:55:21Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Are you confusing me with another poster? My only two posts to this thread are right above yours and I haven’t said anything resembling your strawman there. Try and pay attention. Just pointing out the two contrasting Koch defenses in this thread: 1. Why would the Koch brothers interfere in local politics? 2. Here is why the Koch Brothers are interfering in local politics. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/83 "2014-04-03T15:56:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Is anyone who opposes a climate tax reprehensible? Anyone who tries to deny the problem is. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/84 "2014-04-03T16:01:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Pacific City Lines.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal) Just FYI, that is one of the more silly conspiracy theories out there. The PCL was never intended to be a public transportation system, the basic reason for its existence was to fuel land speculation in the period from 1900-1920, speculation from which the PE’s owner, Henry Huntington, profited immeasurably. It never earned a profit from passengers and ridership started declining during the 1920s, 30 years before the events of the above article. Los Angeles was a city that took to the automobile like no other: in 1910, 1 out of every 7 vehicles registered in the US that year was in Los Angeles county, and by 1930 the number of personal vehicles eclipsed the number of households, making LA the first city in the world where that occurred. There is no need for a conspiracy theory to explain why the Red Line failed - it’s all right there in the ridership numbers, the P&L sheets, and the stated objectives of the executives who owned and ran the thing. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/85 "2014-04-03T16:12:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Just FYI, that is one of the more silly conspiracy theories out there. You can’t fool me. I saw the [documentary](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096438/). ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/86 "2014-04-03T16:21:10Z")
No doubt. The destruction of Toontown is one of the greatest tragedies of 1988. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/87 "2014-04-03T17:15:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > [Charles Koch: I’m Fighting to Restore a Free Society](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286?mod=hp_opinion&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286.html%3Fmod%3Dhp_opinion). > > Looks like one Koch brother wrote an op-ed in the WSJ yesterday. Interesting stuff. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, the fundamental concepts of dignity, respect, equality before the law and personal freedom are under attack by the nation’s own government. . . . > > \ > > . . . The central belief and fatal conceit of the current administration is that you are incapable of running your own life, but those in power are capable of running it for you. This is the essence of big government and collectivism. > > . . . The more government tries to control, the greater the disaster, as shown by the current health-care debacle. Collectivists (those who stand for government control of the means of production and how people live their lives) promise heaven but deliver hell. For them, the promised end justifies the means. > > Instead of encouraging free and open debate, collectivists strive to discredit and intimidate opponents. They engage in character assassination. (I should know, as the almost daily target of their attacks.) This is the approach that Arthur Schopenhauer described in the 19th century, that Saul Alinsky famously advocated in the 20th, and that so many despots have infamously practiced. Such tactics are the antithesis of what is required for a free society—and a telltale sign that the collectivists do not have good answers. So, he’s a liar on top of everything else. These are not even YMMV matters, they’re lies. Now, this bit: > [@](#): > > Instead of fostering a system that enables people to help themselves, America is now saddled with a system that destroys value, raises costs, hinders innovation and relegates millions of citizens to a life of poverty, dependency and hopelessness. is perfectly true, but misleading; the “system” to blame for that is the current iteration of American capitalism, not of American government, except to the extent the latter serves the former. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/88 "2014-04-03T17:29:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From the article linked in the OP: Just because some guy writing an anti-Koch article speculated that the state would never fund it doesn’t mean anything to me. I’m surprised that even you consider that a factual cite. For kicks, I looked up an [anti-AMP](http://www.stopamp.org/#!faqs/c112m) website. Worth a look, for those with open minds, if such exist. Not because everything it says on that site is gospel - I’m sure it’s not - but because it brings up other aspects of the AMP project that these theoretical open-minded people might at least consider as possible reasons to oppose the project that go beyond the Evil Monster Koch Brothers. Mostly having to do with with short and long term disruptions in driving and parking for those not using the AMP, but also relating to use of funds. (FWIW, this cite says that the AMP proponents applied for state funds, although their being granted is unlikely.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/89 "2014-04-03T18:34:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Just because some guy writing an anti-Koch article speculated that the state would never fund it doesn’t mean anything to me. I’m surprised that even you consider that a factual cite. You have a cite saying the state voted money for Amp? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/90 "2014-04-03T18:36:33Z")
I’ve not claimed that. What I said was that opposition was based in part on the possibility that the state would allocate funds for it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/91 "2014-04-03T18:45:36Z")
\*"Holly McCall, the spokesperson for Nashville MTA’s Amp project, told Think Progress that she had suspected AFP’s involvement in the process from the beginning, only to have it confirmed by a thank-you note issued last week. “It’s pretty tough to find that kind of money – AFP gets funds from the Koch brothers, and they’re billionaires,” she said. “We continue to work our local campaign, and we’re probably going to make some tweaks to the design – we’re interested in compromise, because if we don’t, our entire future transit plan is going to be dictated by people who live out of state.” \* > **[Tennessee Republicans nix mass transit with help from Koch brothers](https://www.rt.com/usa/tennessee-mass-transit-koch-brothers-733/)** > > The political group funded by Charles and David Koch, the billionaire conservatives behind a number of polarizing causes, has dedicated a sizable effort to passing a bill that could enact a sweeping ban on mass transit in the state of Tennessee. Maybe some “tweaks to the design” to avoid blocking two of three traffic lanes might actually be beneficial? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/92 "2014-04-03T20:21:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > To be fair, your typical post is, “Another _Conservatives are Evil_, circlejerk.” Actually, no, that would not be being fair. Seriously, if you cannot separate yourself from your ideology enough to see that Oakminster and IdiotGlutton do not post similarly at all, you’re most of a lost cause than I guessed. Again, ideology aside, IdiotGlutton owns the whole “Oh, look what I found! Here’s a cite. Discuss…” nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/93 "2014-04-03T20:50:18Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > [Charles Koch: I’m Fighting to Restore a Free Society](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286?mod=hp_opinion&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286.html%3Fmod%3Dhp_opinion). > > Looks like one Koch brother wrote an op-ed in the WSJ yesterday. Interesting stuff. Oh, me! Oh, my! [Joan Walsh’s response to that is out of the **park!**](http://www.salon.com/2014/04/03/billionaires_crybaby_club_someone_get_these_whiners_a_bottle/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/94 "2014-04-03T20:56:04Z")
If you actually go to the source material, there is very little to go on in terms of who was really pulling the stings in the legislature. [For instance:](http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2014/03/27/tenn-senate-approves-bill-block-amp-bus-project/6956069/) > [@](#): > > One factor appears to have been the involvement of Americans for Prosperity. Soon after the vote, opponents of the Amp issued a statement that thanked the group for its work in support of the bill — efforts that included direct lobbying and urging foes to contact lawmakers. Not much meat to chew on there. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/95 "2014-04-04T14:10:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, he’s a liar on top of everything else. These are not even YMMV matters, they’re lies. Now, this bit: I get that you disagree with his opinions, but it’s simply not correct to call them lies. Their opinions, and ones that I completely agree with. But it’s not something you can characterize as a “lie”, since it’s clearly the worldview of the man. If you said that “Conservatives are ruining the country” I would disagree with you, but I wouldn’t call you a liar. Can you not grasp that he and many others really do have beliefs about government that are different than yours? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/96 "2014-04-04T14:14:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just pointing out the two contrasting Koch defenses in this thread: > > 1. Why would the Koch brothers interfere in local politics? > 2. Here is why the Koch Brothers are interfering in local politics. So it’s fair to lump all the conservatives into one group and then point out any inconsistencies in that hivemind? You realize that the liberals on this board do this in just about every single thread, right? Plus you’ve got bullet #1 wrong. The only point made resembling this that I saw was that they Koch brothers probably don’t personally oversee every instance of interference that their funding supports. This is probably true, but not at all in conflict with your second bullet as you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/97 "2014-04-04T14:57:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So it’s fair to lump all the conservatives into one group and then point out any inconsistencies in that hivemind? > > You realize that the liberals on this board do this in just about every single thread, right? Do we? One criticism (if such it be) sometimes leveled against me is that I’m too obsessed with taxonomies and nuances and identifying different kinds and categories of conservatives and liberals and studying how they disagree and conflict with their allies. It’s really a fascinating study, on both general sides of the spectrum. And the conservatives on this board – and elsewhere, IMO – they just don’t do that very much, in fact they seem unable to discern any distinctions at all on the left side of the spectrum, as if they were viewing it through the wrong end of a telescope. Can’t tell Keynes from Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/98 "2014-04-04T15:58:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > [Charles Koch: I’m Fighting to Restore a Free Society](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286?mod=hp_opinion&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286.html%3Fmod%3Dhp_opinion). > > Looks like one Koch brother wrote an op-ed in the WSJ yesterday. Interesting stuff. What I get from this, is that Koch is in favor of promoting individual rights over collective rights, and since he’s got the money he’s the lucky individual who gets those rights. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/99 "2014-04-04T16:25:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do we? Yes. Not that I blame you for it. It’s natural, since as we both know there are a lot more buckets of political belief than “liberal” and “conservative”. The most notable occurrences of this is when we have discussions about the overwhelming liberal makeup of the SDMB. The responses humorously bounce back and forth between “the board isn’t left leaning at all” and “of course it’s left leaning, since we’re fighting ignorance”. > [@](#): > > And the conservatives on this board – and elsewhere, IMO – they just don’t do that very much, in fact they seem unable to discern any distinctions at all on the left side of the spectrum, as if they were viewing it through the wrong end of a telescope. Can’t tell Keynes from Stalin. Maybe some conservatives do this. But you do the same thing with your political typologies. You just break everyone into a half dozen groups instead of two. Reality is more complicated even than that. For example: I, as a fiscally conservative atheist who votes Republican but is registered independent, don’t fit into any of your buckets. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112/100 "2014-04-04T16:47:17Z")
Bucket would be too big. Thimble, maybe. One of those sealed plastic containers they use for stool samples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koch-bros-hit-a-new-low-killing-a-rapid-bus-line-in-nashville-just-because/685112.md?page=6)