# The Koran/al'Quran is unchanged through time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881 "2003-10-27T18:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/21 "2003-10-28T12:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > So the current language, script and interpretation of the al’Quran is exactly the same now as back in the 8th century? No it is not. The early Arabic script was a defective one and didn’t know any diactric (is that the right word) signs. The first copies (mushaf) of the text were thus only designed as a memory-help for the reader. The reason why caliph Uthman ordered what is known as the “Uthmanian redaction” - which is still the only legitmite one -was that as result of the quick expansion of the Islamic empire differences in readings (= parallel editions) were noticed and brought to his attention. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/22 "2003-10-28T12:25:22Z")
Monty, This spelling Qur’an is the standard translitteration of the Arabic word. I would show you the original but I don’t think this website takes Arabic script. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/23 "2003-10-28T12:54:00Z")
How about not posting bs as though it’s fact, Aldebaran. It’s already been proven to you that there’s two accepted spellings IN ENGLISH of that particular Arabic word. So, why aren’t you all up in arms about the non-English languages that don’t follow your decrees? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/24 "2003-10-28T13:03:49Z")
p.s. I know exactly what the word looks like written in Arabic. After all, my copy of the Qur’an actually has it. And I’m able to read the Arabic script. It is, after all, a script and is no more miraculous than any other script. What I was getting at was why you’re not freaking out at those other languages not using a transliteration but instead their own spellings. I believe it’s because those languages aren’t English and it’s your hatred of the United States that drives your hatred of English. And if you want a cite, I can safely say that your posts are your cites for my assertion there. But, if it makes you feel good, you can type it in Arabic on this site and let the reader know which of the four encoding selections for Arabic you used. As to your assertion about the only legitimate one, please provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/25 "2003-10-28T14:50:39Z")
Ah **Aldebaran** , the sight of you actually providing information is franky scary as all hell. Though I will point out I was highlighting the small number of cites used to question the unchanging nature of the Alcoran Régis Blachère apparently published [Le Coran](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2130440762/qid=1067351406/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-4057456-7666505?v=glance&n=507846) though I note the distinctive lack of proper Arabic phonetics….[Introduction au Coran](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2706806362/qid=1067351500/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-4057456-7666505?v=glance&s=books)…damn again with the bad phonetics… and [Dictionnaire Arabe Francais Anglais: Langue Classique et Moderne, 36 Fascicules](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0828866740/qid=1067351500/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-4057456-7666505?v=glance&s=books) The only dating I can scrounge up on the gentleman is that Elements de l’Arabe classique (4th ed) was published some time in the mid 1950s And this Theodor Nöldeke? ([THE QUR’AN An Introduction by Theodor Nöldeke](http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Noeldeke/quran.htm)) The man lived from 1836 to 1930. So let’s say his best years were in 1900. The best references for textual history of the Alcoran roughly 50-100 years old? That aside, since you potentially have something to contribute here, how can the fact that the transcribed writing style differs from the original be accepted without rejecting the idea of an unchanging Qur’an? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/26 "2003-10-28T14:59:45Z")
Seems also that your library is not nearly as esoteric as you believed. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/27 "2003-10-28T15:02:48Z")
Actually, we seem to have a serious problem with intellectual freedom when it comes to Islam and the Koran. Consider this quote from the link I provided above: > [@](#): > > The reverberations have affected non-Muslim scholars in Western countries. “Between fear and political correctness, it’s not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam,” said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence as well as the widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures. The threat apparently comes from two different groups: PC liberals in both the academic community and the general community who will harass and persecute anybody who dare to criticize another culture, and violent Muslims who can’t stand to have anyone question their religion (which appears to be an awful lot of Muslims these days). Surely I can’t be the only one who’s sick to death of all this crap about Islam being a “religion of peace and tolerance.” ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/28 "2003-10-28T15:09:59Z")
It’s a vocal minority. The gentleman sitting next to me right now has yet to ask for my still beating heart for being a vocally, doubtful agnostic. Besides, your quote also mentions “widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures”. So it’s not strictly related to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/29 "2003-10-28T16:02:32Z")
Well Grey, thank you for the former posts. Because you made it very clear that you didn’t open this thread to actually learn something abut the issue. You just opened it to expose your complete ignorance and unwillingness to remedy it. And when I say that Blachère and Nöldeke still have world wide recognition for their studies, you can debate that as much as you want. It doesn’t change that fact. And by the way: a translitteration is what it is: a translitteration = an accepted way of translating. How do you think that changes the original in the original lanbuage? That is a new one to me. And Monty, if I say that the way I spell Qur’an is one of the standard translitterations, this means that it is one of the accepted translitterations as used by all who are active in the studyfields touching the Arabic language in general and Islam in general. I don’t waist my time on people who actually have no clue what they are talking about and just open topics to demonstrate it, and that is all. To the other members who might come to read this topic: If someone is here to receive intofmation about what is touched in the OP, I’m most ready to answer your questuions. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/30 "2003-10-28T16:14:39Z")
You’re hardly indispensable in this discussion **Aldebaran**. Others have already clarified a few things for me, I’m sure you’re **cites** are useful assuming I can get a hold of them, and with any luck you will actually post something to address the issue as opposed to obliquely referencing your expertise in this area and then providing nothing of substance. If you’d like to pit me for my OP and obviously nefarious intentions, knock yourself out. Back to my last question. > [@](#): > > That aside, since you potentially have something to contribute here, how can the fact that the transcribed writing style differs from the original be accepted without rejecting the idea of an unchanging Qur’an? I do understand that the original recitation was oral, however it was written down on whatever was available correct? This was done continually over the 20 odd years it took to receive the Alcoran correct? Now you are saying that this written record is not identical to the “official” version compiled after the prophet’s death. Does this mean there was no loss of meaning, inflection, or intent when the original notes were transliterated into the official version of the al Qur’an? How can that be? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/31 "2003-10-28T16:19:37Z")
A transliteration is not a translation in any way. It’s merely a rendering in one writing system of the sounds of another language. Although you seem to be rather allergic to (or at least shy of) cites, here’s yet another one: There are three definitions presented at from [www.dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > To represent (letters or words) in the corresponding characters of another alphabet. {Monty’s note: this is under the definition for **tranliterate** > [@](#): > > , n. The act or product of transliterating, or of expressing words of a language by means of the characters of another alphabet. > [@](#): > > n : transcribing from one alphabet to another Got it now? Also, I see nothing in your posts to show that you are aware of much of the study in any field, let alone a leader in same. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/32 "2003-10-28T16:34:42Z")
So let’s see if I have this right. 1. Alcoran exists with God (like the logos or nous of Hellenist Christianity) 2. The Koran is given to Gabriel 3. Al Qur’an is given to Mohammed in fragments in 8th century Arabic 4. Mohammed recites Alcoran to some followers a) The followers memorize the Koran b) The followers write down al Qur’an in 8th century Arabic 5. A Caliph calls for a written Koran after the death of Mohammed. 6. The remaining followers write the Alcoran down \*but not in the original script/language? of note 4b. Does that about sum it up? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/33 "2003-10-28T17:11:25Z")
Monty, . Transliteration is an accepted - and standarized - way to have letters/words/characters of an other language written in the used language. So yes, it is indeed of form of translation, because you “translate” the letters of the original language into letters that can be written/used in the language you use. If you are out on commenting on every word I write to feel good… I can also start writing in a language I master and from which you don’t understand one word. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/34 "2003-10-28T17:19:35Z")
Sounds good to me, I’ll break out the Gaelic. Aside from your pretensions, got anything to contribute? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/35 "2003-10-28T17:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > ]You’re hardly indispensable in this discussion **Aldebaran**. > > Others have already clarified a few things for me, I’m sure you’re **cites** are useful assuming I can get a hold of them, and with any luck you will actually post something to address the issue as opposed to obliquely referencing your expertise in this area and then providing nothing of substance. No one is indispensable, but if you’re not ready to accept that I’m scholared in this issue, then you are most obvious not ready to accept anything I write. So everything I write to you is clearly a very great waist of my time. > [@](#): > > Back to my last question. I do understand that the original recitation was oral, however it was written down on whatever was available correct? This was done continually over the 20 odd years it took to receive the Alcoran correct? Now you are saying that this written record is not identical to the “official” version compiled after the prophet’s death. No I did not say that. Read again. > [@](#): > > Does this mean there was no loss of meaning, inflection, or intent when the original notes were transliterated into the official version of the al Qur’an? How can that be? There was never any “transliteration”. And you jump over a few centuries as if they didn’t exist. We were not yet at the printed edition we know now, were we? We were just at the very beginning of the history of Al Qur’an as text. Now le’ts take a look at your “list” that “sums it up”… ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/36 "2003-10-28T17:32:48Z")
Careful, I said “Does that sum it up?” I’m still unsure about the whole Notes–\>Parallel Versions—\>Official Version progression. If the Qur’an is unchanged from the moment it was imparted to Mohammed how does the above progression impact the integrity of the various transcriptions? How is it known that the official version matched exactly the oral version given by Mohammed? How does a “defective script” play a role in all this? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/37 "2003-10-28T17:43:58Z")
As an aside… **Aldebaran** regardless of your personal views of me, if you have a concise, informative post to make on this make it. There are others that read these threads; there may actually be others that turn this thread up in a year or two. If you ever wanted to provide something useful to these forums, on an area you consider yourself an expert this would be it. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/38 "2003-10-28T17:52:14Z")
Yeah! let’s disregard information on Islam from the board’s only regularly posting Muslim 'cause we don’t like his political views. > [@](#): > > \*\* > sick to death of all this crap about Islam being a “religion of peace and tolerance.” \*\* Sounds like a spirit of honest, open intellectual inquiry to me. Certainly not the same tired Muslim-baiting that’s become common here. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/39 "2003-10-28T17:58:19Z")
**’possum stalker** you’re not saying that a person needs to be Muslim to be able to comment, or provided information on Islamic questions are you? Or is your post addressed to \*\* LonesomePolecat\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881/40 "2003-10-28T18:15:01Z")
> [@](#): > > 1.Alcoran exists with God (like the logos or nous of Hellenist Christianity) That is the belief among the vast majority of Muslims. > [@](#): > > 2.The Koran is given to Gabriel Idem. > [@](#): > > 1. Qur’an is given to Mohammed in fragments in 8th century Arabic. According to Al Qur’an itself it was transferred in the dialect of the Quraish since that was the language Muhammed knew since it was the language of his tribe. This language became later what is called “Quranic Arabic”. > [@](#): > > 1. Mohammed recites Alcoran to some followers There were “some” followers at the beginning of his preaching. Ther were - taking in account the standards of that time - a significant amount of Muslims when he died. > [@](#): > > a)The followers memorize the Koran Not all. There is described that some among them claimed they knew all of it by heart, which is well possible seen the oral tradition prevailed largely the written one in that days society on that particular place. Others are to be said to have known large or smaller amounts of suras by heart. > [@](#): > > b)The followers write down al Qur’an in 8th century Arabic The traditions tell us that Muhammed dictated the revelations to secretaries. Further there is record of followers who wrote down various parts of suras, whole suras and collections of suras. > [@](#): > > 1. Caliph calls for a written Koran after the death of Mohammed. Previous to the Uthmanian redaction (Uthmann was the third caliph) which is still in use now, a great record of stories tell us about alread existing written compilations formed right after the death of Muhammed. The first who ordered a gathering of all texts and oral transferred suras was Abu Bakr, the first Caliph. I can give you the story behind it if you want. His compilation was used as basic for the Uthmanian redaction. According the Shi’a tradition 'Ali wrote down the whole Qur’an the very day Muhammed died. Further is transmitted that close followers of the Prophet also had written editions of Quranic texts. There is evidence in the hadith that some of these survived for a time as parallel readings besides the Uthmanian redaction. There is a variety of discussions and opinions about these early written texts and the goal (and duration) of their existence. Most probably- with exception of the one of Abu Bakr - they weren’t written down with the goal to “preserve” the text and distribute it. We have seen that the oral tradition prevailed and Al Qur’an was recited by heart. So they were only for personal use of the owner, which most probably was also the case with the collection of Abu Bakr. There are also indications that this redaction was not finished when he died. > [@](#): > > 1. The remaining followers write the Alcoran down \*but not in the original script/language? See above. And of course all was written down in the language used for the oral recitation. That is why Caliph Uthman ordered that whenever there was a discussion about how to write a certain word, it had to be written in the dialect of the Quraish, since that was Muhammed’s language. So no, your “list” hardly “sums it up”. We are still at the beginning of the story of Al Qur’an as text. Salaam. A [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-koran-alquran-is-unchanged-through-time/209881.md?page=3)