# The Kwanzaa Thread (minus ChristmaRamaHannukah) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184 "2004-12-22T17:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/1 "2004-12-22T17:27:26Z")
Over in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=293171&page=2), a minor hijack started about whether Kwanzaa is a legitimate, feel-good cultural festival for American blacks of African descent, or a hokey scam invented by a black supremicist. I have no dog in this fight, as I know next to nothing about Kwanzaa and don’t even know any people who celebrate it. But I thought it desrved its own thread. So, anyone? What _is_ Kwanzaa, and is it ba-nanner oil or not? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/2 "2004-12-22T18:08:46Z")
There’s no real reason it can’t be both, can it? Not really joking. It was started as said, more or less. Then the greeting card companies took it and ran with it. Hell, in Japan, they’ve split Valentine’s Day into male to female, and female to male a bit later. (Earlier? White… something.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/3 "2004-12-22T18:37:27Z")
Clearly Kwanzaa was invented–it own author stated that. I fail to see the “scam” aspect, however. The author never made any money off it. It was simply one of numerous attempts by an oppressed group to claim something of their own in a society which had deliberately stripped them of all their original cultural ties. That being said, I suspect that there are more “morning shows” and local news broadcasters celebrating Kwanzaa than there are actual people in the community who celebrate it. Christmas has flooded many (if not all) of the non-Christian communities in the U.S. for its fellowship and gift-giving, regardless of any religious values associated with it and the spiritual values of Kwanzaa have no better chance of overcoming the Christmas juggernaut than any other celebration. As to the commercial aspects of Kwanzaa, how is that different than people attempting to make a holiday out of Columbus Day or St. Patrick’s Day? (If anything, the U.S. celebration of St. Patrick’s Day is the most commercialized ethnic celebration, probably in the world, and bears no resembance to its celebration in Ireland. Those who are offended by Kwanzaa should be out demonstrating against the artifical celebration of St. Paddy’s Day every year.) [Kwanzaa Origins and Development](http://christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/whatiskw.htm) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/4 "2004-12-22T19:04:22Z")
I’d be content if the coverage of Kwanzaa accurately reflected its popularity (or lack thereof). Like **tomndebb,** I think the only reason Kwanzaa gets as much attention as it does is because it gives the mainstream media a token example of “diversity” in their news fluff pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/5 "2004-12-22T19:09:35Z")
Does anyone know anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa? All my black friends, acquaintances and coworkers just roll their eyes and go, “oh, _please_.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/6 "2004-12-22T19:30:48Z")
I think Kwanzaa is pushed by white liberals to show how “down” they are and by African American cultural groups as part of their arts and dance programs. DC, which is positively _running over_ with black people, has some Kwanzaa events, but I don’t think, from the informal sampling I’ve conducted, anyone actually observes it. And any holiday that has socialism (_Ujima_) and economic autarky (_Ujamaa_) written into its list of official values(the _Nguzo Saba_) is not a holiday worth celebrating, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/7 "2004-12-22T20:28:02Z")
**gobear** wrote > [@](#): > > And any holiday that has socialism (Ujima) and economic autarky (Ujamaa) written into its list of official values(the Nguzo Saba) is not a holiday worth celebrating, IMO. Come on. I can’t think of one other holiday – especially not Christmas – that pushes a code of (pretty reasonable) ethics. The two you quoted are just varients of self-determination and taking care of one another. Far better than the gimme-gimme lessons of Christmas, with it’s patron saint Santa Claus. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/8 "2004-12-22T20:30:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > how is that different than people attempting to make a holiday out of Columbus Day… Columbus Day _is_ a federal holiday (much to my chagrin, as my wife works for the feds and I don’t). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/9 "2004-12-22T20:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Columbus Day _is_ a federal holiday But it only became one after there was a serious amount of agitation to make it so. Granted, it is not the true Italian ethnic celebration that the Feast of the Assumption is, but it is still a celebration rooted (but not kept) in a desire for ethnic recognition, just as St. Paddy’s Day, Oktoberfest, and similar events. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/10 "2004-12-22T20:46:16Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Does anyone know anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa? All my black friends, acquaintances and coworkers just roll their eyes and go, “oh, _please_.” Most likely due to the fact that since blacks in the US probably are the most Christian ethnic group in the US, and tend to be church goers (largely for historical reasons; back in the day even white racists would have trouble with the idea of causing problems with a Christian church), it isn’t like blacks need an alternative to Christmas. Likely the failure of Kwanzaa as a black holiday is that it occurs at Christmastime. If someone is going to create a black holiday out of this air and wants blacks to celebrate it, it would be better to set it at a time that it _doesn’t_ conflict with Christian holidays. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/11 "2004-12-22T20:46:47Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Does anyone know anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa? All my black friends, acquaintances and coworkers… Blacks? Shit, my sister’s firm of 160 people employs one person who has black-white mixed parentage, and her firm is _ahead_ in terms of parity with population mix. My boss’s father is Jewish and she, my boss, made matzo ball soup for xmas brunch—but that’s probably fodder for another thread. Anywho, I went to some Kwanza thing when I was in college. It was just so cheesy. I’m all for more holidays; but that one was a nonstarter. On a side note, I always amuse myself by thinking how ironic it’d be if we adopted more diversity by treating Kwanza like we do so many established holidays: turn it into either a booze fest or a shopping spree. I vote for the former just because the “Kiss Me I’m African American” buttons would crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/12 "2004-12-22T21:33:08Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Does anyone know anyone who actually celebrates Kwanzaa? All my black friends, acquaintances and coworkers just roll their eyes and go, “oh, _please_.” I was going to ask this same question over in IMHO. I’ve never met anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa either, and was surprised to find out that there are actually _songs_ for the holiday. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/13 "2004-12-22T21:35:47Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Most likely due to the fact that since blacks in the US probably are the most Christian ethnic group in the US, and tend to be church goers… I suspect it is more than scheduling conflicts for those people. Kwanzaa is often seen as having roots in animistic beliefs and as a friend said when asked if she celebrated it, “No way! I’m a Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/14 "2004-12-22T21:48:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Kwanzaa was invented in 1966 by Dr. Maulana “Ron” Karenga, a former black militant, Marxist and convicted felon. Claiming to have the unity of black people in mind, Karenga committed most of his crimes against blacks. > > Just five years after his invention, he was convicted of torturing two black women by stripping them naked, beating them with electrical cords, placing a hot iron into the mouth of one and mangling the toe of the other in a vice. During the ordeal, he forced them to drink detergent. This was posted in a link provided above. It’s a heavily slanted Christian site (or so it appears to me) so I take it with a grain of salt. Still, is this true? About Karenga torturing these women, I mean? Also, the above site claims that Kwanza is the only racially motivated holiday on the US calendar because it’s original intent was to exclude all non-African participants. Seems the good Doctor has reversed his position on that more recently but still… doesn’t look like a very inclusive shindig. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/15 "2004-12-22T22:03:34Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I suspect it is more than scheduling conflicts for those people. Kwanzaa is often seen as having roots in animistic beliefs and as a friend said when asked if she celebrated it, “No way! I’m a Christian.” Worse yet: [http://www.christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/nguzosb.htm](http://www.christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/nguzosb.htm) “…it often denies and diminishes human worth, capacity, potential and achievement. In Christian and Jewish mythology, humans are born in sin, cursed with mythical ancestors who’ve sinned and brought the wrath of an angry God on every generation’s head. … If a mythical being has done, does and will do everything, what’s our relevance and role in the world?” That was written by the creator of Kwanzaa. The guy was clearly anti-Christian. This would make Kwanzaa hard to sell the black Americans. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/16 "2004-12-22T22:07:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This was posted in a link provided above. It’s a heavily slanted Christian site (or so it appears to me) so I take it with a grain of salt. Still, is this true? About Karenga torturing these women, I mean? > > Also, the above site claims that Kwanza is the only racially motivated holiday on the US calendar because it’s original intent was to exclude all non-African participants. Seems the good Doctor has reversed his position on that more recently but still… doesn’t look like a very inclusive shindig. :dubious: > **[Maulana Karenga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maulana_Karenga)** > > Maulana Ndabezitha Karenga (born Ronald McKinley Everett, July 14, 1941) , previously known as Ron Karenga, is an American professor of Africana studies, activist, and author best known as the creator of the pan-African and the African-American holiday of Kwanzaa. > Born in Parsonsburg, Maryland, to an African-American family, Karenga studied at Los Angeles City College and the University of California, Los Angeles. He was active in the Black Power movement of the 1960s and 1970s, joining the ... “In 1971, he was convicted of the brutal torture of two of his female followers. He was sentenced to one to ten years in prison, eventually being released in 1975.” According to that, yes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/17 "2004-12-23T00:34:41Z")
I know people who celebrate Kwanzaa. One is my mother. We don’t do the kenorrah thing in our family, but she goes to Kwanzaa parties. I know she’s hosted parties at her job. I have been to a couple myself. They take place on the last day and start off like regular parties. But then there’s a ritual where you pour libations in honor of dead loved ones. That was about it. At the parties I’ve attended, the participants were predominately black. But some whities have shown up too and they seem to enjoy themselves just fine. All holidays are “made up” though. I don’t understand why people think one holiday is more “real” than another one. Also, none of the Kwanzaa celebrants I know are anything but Christian (my mother is an ordained minister). They tend to be more Afrocentric and community-oriented (which is really an important ingredient of the whole thing), though. I don’t think it’s a clash of religious beliefs that keep celebrants low; rather, I think it’s a culture clash. It also takes dedication. The celebration lasts seven days, and the principals are quite serious in nature. (Let’s have a party for cooperative economics! Whoo hoo!) One thing that I like about Kwanzaa is that simple, home-made gifts are emphasized. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/18 "2004-12-23T01:29:44Z")
[Complete and total hijack] Yo \*\* monstro\*\*. Your father wants you to call him. He doesn’t know when you’re supposed to be coming home, and frankly, I don’t know either.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/19 "2004-12-23T01:38:45Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I think Kwanzaa is pushed by white liberals to show how “down” they are and by African American cultural groups as part of their arts and dance programs. DC, which is positively _running over_ with black people, has some Kwanzaa events, but I don’t think, from the informal sampling I’ve conducted, anyone actually observes it. Seems that way. My wife and I had a singer friend of her’s (who happens to be black) over to my sister-in-law’s place for dinner not but a few nights ago. A book lying on the couch among the jumble of my niece’s toys gave a kindergarten-level synopsis of Kwanzaa. The friend snuck a peek at the book while my SIL was out of the room, went ::snort::, and then whispered to us jokingly “What is she teaching her daughter?” ---
**Author:** ![Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirror_Image_egamI_rorriM)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184/20 "2004-12-23T04:04:37Z")
I know exactly one person who celebrates Kwanzaa. Oddly enough, she is also a Jehovah’s Witness who doesn’t celebrate Christmas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-kwanzaa-thread-minus-christmaramahannukah/281184.md?page=2)