# The "L" word (Liberal) - I need help **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468 "2005-11-04T13:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/21 "2005-11-04T19:39:26Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The equivalent would be for you to say, “Everyone has a right to declare words which are theirs and theirs alone to use, such as their names.” When I come along and say, “Naw, I can use your name if I need to,” you accuse me of being authoritarian for robbing your name-use from you. My body and my mind are not mine because I declare them so; they are mine because I (and not you) were born with them. Neither did what I’ve acquired with them did not pop into existence out of my imagination. (That was a very strange argument from you anyway, given that you want to reserve to yourself the use of “Daniel” in refering to you.) > [@](#): > > i believe that by dissing private property protection, we **increase** liberty: private property protection is an authoritarian construct. It increases anarchy maybe — freedom for some at the expense of others. But since you’re in your “property ownership is evil” mode, I need your computer for my wife. Besides, you’re wrong. Property ownership is the very essence of liberalism: “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” — Ludwig von Mises, _Liberalism in the Classical Tradition_, 1927 Like Sentient already said, some people seem to confuse liberalism with socialism. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/22 "2005-11-04T19:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > If that is so, how is it that the ultra-radical rightists who turn the radio waves in your fair country so much more shrill rest easy with the term “Conservative”? Because they haven’t chosen a specific label to attach to themselves which distinguishes them from other conservatives. Moreover, the shrill ones on the conservative side make their particular home in one of several distinct subgroups, eschewing any sense of common identity save being on the Right. I am making no moral judgement here; I am merely pointing out a political mistake. > [@](#): > > To the rest of the industrialised world, the political compass in the US is skewed way towards authoritarian plutocracy. First off, no. The US is much more turned toward capitalism than western Europe. It is not, however, particularly authortarian or plutocratic, though we do have a handful of successful political dynasties. It certainly neither authortarian or plutocratic compared to most of western Europe, which has a much tighter group of elites who have considerably more power over the citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/23 "2005-11-04T19:59:59Z")
I love listening to talk radio. I believe that here you can witness how the word ‘liberal’ became a dirty word – I’m waiting for them to start bleeping it to protect our sensitivities. All the popular hosts have mastered the art of putting in as much venom and hatred into that little word as they can muster. It’s a great curse word, actually, especially when you take out the middle e. Those god damned lib’ruls are traitors to the country! Godless lib’ruls!! See? It’s pretty fun! You can’t really put that much spite into the word ‘conservative.’ It’s just too long. Same with ‘progressive.’ The only way they can smear that one is if they link it with the word liberal in some way – usually involving the word closet. And that’s almost a two-fer since then you have an easy segue into those cavorting homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/24 "2005-11-04T21:10:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > (That was a very strange argument from you anyway, given that you want to reserve to yourself the use of “Daniel” in refering to you.) > > But since you’re in your “property ownership is evil” mode, I need your computer for my wife. Two falsehoods in one post. I see no reason to continue this. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/25 "2005-11-04T22:08:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Two falsehoods in one post. I see no reason to continue this. Why is it that lately, you turn every debate with me into a morality judgment? If you’re not going to debate, just stop engaging the issue. Next time, before you toss out a snarky misrepresentation like “only because you seem to define liberty in terms of private property”, and dismiss my viewpoint as “a semantic issue, not a real issue”, why not stop and ask yourself whether you’re interested in a _susbstantive_ discussion in which you hold yourself to the same harsh standards that you hold me? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/26 "2005-11-05T00:24:59Z")
Want me to rent you two a room in the Pit for the night? 🙂 Meanwhile is **Evil Captor** right? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/27 "2005-11-05T01:23:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m talking about the sentiment expressed by classical liberal Thoreau in his _Walden_: “If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.” Which only suggests that Thoreau had a cynical, misanthropic streak. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/28 "2005-11-05T02:15:26Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > I love listening to talk radio. I believe that here you can witness how the word ‘liberal’ became a dirty word – I’m waiting for them to start bleeping it to protect our sensitivities. All the popular hosts have mastered the art of putting in as much venom and hatred into that little word as they can muster. It’s a great curse word, actually, especially when you take out the middle e. Those god damned lib’ruls are traitors to the country! Godless lib’ruls!! See? It’s pretty fun! > > You can’t really put that much spite into the word ‘conservative.’ It’s just too long. Same with ‘progressive.’ The only way they can smear that one is if they link it with the word liberal in some way – usually involving the word closet. And that’s almost a two-fer since then you have an easy segue into those cavorting homosexuals. I think part of the problem stems from the practice of the press. Conservatives are almost always “right wing”, but Liberals are never “left wing”. There is a benefit to conservatives to have the “right wing” label: it immediately makes it easy to talk about the _extreme_ right wing, distancing it from the (moderate) right wing. Liberals are talked about as “liberals” or “the left” or now, “progressives”. This does not allow them to easily separate themselves from the extreme wing of the ideology. So, Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Ward Churchill, and Cindy Sheehan get the same label as Chris Mathews, Bill Clinton, Diane Feinstein, and Joe Lieberman. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/29 "2005-11-05T02:45:43Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > You can’t really put that much spite into the word ‘conservative.’ It’s just too long. However, ‘fascist’ can be spat out with a great deal of venom. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/30 "2005-11-05T06:57:30Z")
> [@](#): > > **magellan01** : So, Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Ward Churchill, and Cindy Sheehan get the same label as Chris Mathews, Bill Clinton, Diane Feinstein, and Joe Lieberman. I hope you are not suggesting that all of those are _liberals_! **DSeid** , I think that your post (#19) is an excellent description of the meaning that _liberal_ still holds for me. Conservatives have brought another meaning to it and, unfortunately, many otherwise liberal leaders have sold out because of that mischaracterization. > [@](#): > > **Liberal** : If I defined liberty in terms of Arnold Palmer’s speech patterns, both the left and right would still want to tell him which words are forbidden and which are allowed. Nope. The liberal would tell Arnold when she is offended by his speech choices. That is different from censoring or forbidding his words. The choice is still left to Arnold. > [@](#): > > **Liberal** : …but there is no comparison between wanting to provide for the common welfare and wanting to provide for every conceivable need. Well, that’s an easy one to agree on. Where we probably differ is on what is sufficient for the common welfare. Contrary to what you have suggested, generally liberals don’t want to provide for every conceivable need. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/31 "2005-11-05T12:34:42Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > I love listening to talk radio. I believe that here you can witness how the word ‘liberal’ became a dirty word – I’m waiting for them to start bleeping it to protect our sensitivities. All the popular hosts have mastered the art of putting in as much venom and hatred into that little word as they can muster. It’s a great curse word, actually, especially when you take out the middle e. Those god damned lib’ruls are traitors to the country! Godless lib’ruls!! See? It’s pretty fun! > > You can’t really put that much spite into the word ‘conservative.’ It’s just too long. Same with ‘progressive.’ The only way they can smear that one is if they link it with the word liberal in some way – usually involving the word closet. And that’s almost a two-fer since then you have an easy segue into those cavorting homosexuals. There’s an interesting thread right now on the label “Racist”: > **[Is this racist?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343178)** > > Millions, So I’m having a pleasant, rainy-day conversation with a fairly uppity liberal (I am in San Francisco) and we start talking about old wait-staff jobs we’ve had. It’s all chuckles and reminiscing until I make a racial comment. This girl,... Maybe the Dems should try that. Oh wait … 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/32 "2005-11-05T13:01:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The problem with “liberal” taking on an association with either the left or the right — each of which suppresses one liberty or another — practically nullifies the meaning of the word. OK **Lib**. Since you call yourself “Liberal”, you are nullified by your own definition. Based on your own statement, the only way you can avoid nullifying yourself is not to associate with either the left or the right. Am I correct so far? If no, please explain where your Libertaria fantasyland places you. Left, right, center, out-of-the-box, with no chance of prevailing in the Congress/White House/Supreme Court. Can you do anything except PR marketing about how good the Libertarian Utopia is going to be? Let’s face it, **Lib** , the Golden Rule does not apply to you, because you simply do not have the Gold. Treasongate means that you pretend you care about 250 millions of your fellow citizens, while you really don’t give a sh\*t, sending 2,000 of them to die for no reason. That is what I call “being morally weak”, which you have already admitted publicly you are. So, what is a weak moral person doing here talking about “suppression of liberty”. Re. the OP, obviously you are way to the right of the “political center”, while you subterfuge and camouflage yourself under the name of “Liberal”. Wishy-washy. Why is it that your appearance in these threads always remind me of priests playing with the alter boys, or Scooter Libby writing dirty books about 10-year old girls making love to bears? Are you as “Liberal” as him? I have noted many inconsistencies in your 24,000 posts with very few credible references to support your not-so-humble opinions. Would you like to open a Pit thread, or would you like me to start one? Your choice… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/33 "2005-11-05T14:26:18Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Well, that’s an easy one to agree on. Where we probably differ is on what is sufficient for the common welfare. Contrary to what you have suggested, generally liberals don’t want to provide for every conceivable need. But that isn’t what I’ve suggested. In fact, I’m suggesting the opposite. The OP is about perception of the term liberal: _It seems to me that most on the right who are “conservatives” are proud of the label while those on the left run away from the term"liberal"_. I’m saying that there is no reason to run away from the term liberal. It is a proud word with a proud tradition, born of man’s noblest endowment — his free and willful consent. “Liberal” and “socialist” are not synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/34 "2005-11-05T18:10:52Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > Why is it that your appearance in these threads always remind me of priests playing with the alter boys, or Scooter Libby writing dirty books about 10-year old girls making love to bears? Are you as “Liberal” as him? **Moderator’s Warning:** **Wake up call** , do NOT [compare other posters to “priests playing with altar boys”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4749265) in Great Debates. You have been warned at least [twice](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5641649#post5641649) [before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5779851#post5779851) for insults in this forum. You need to change this behavior if you want to keep posting here. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/35 "2005-11-05T18:40:02Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Whereas, the Conservatives of the 18th century were generally the existing elites trying to preserve their priveleges. And, that has changed how? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/36 "2005-11-05T20:17:08Z")
Truth be told **Zoe** , I think that **Lib** shares more in principals with what you and I consider to be worthy of the label “Liberal” than do many others who go around calling themselves by that name. As you wisely point out, the difference are merely in what we each consider to be providing for the common welfare, and how we balance competing imperatives in individual cases. Our conclusions may often differ, but the basic principals are in common. I think that he’d endorse all three of my “You are ready to be a Liberal” points as well; the key difference is that when it comes to the second point, he’d insist on that personal responsibility to society being met entirely on a voluntary basis, and expects that most would do so. (Correct me if I misrepresent you, **Lib**.) I have no problem with madates so long as the degree of greater good justifies the imposition and the burden of proof of greater good is on the one desiring the mandate. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-l-word-liberal-i-need-help/329468/37 "2005-11-05T23:50:46Z")
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