# The Lakota have declared independence from the U.S. \[ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699 "2007-12-20T14:06:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/81 "2007-12-21T03:32:46Z")
As a semi-paleoconservative sort, I must ask brother Liberal if the part about liens on private land offends him as much as it does me. Tain’t theirs. Specially if it means the _whole_ area as implied. Captain Amazing: I figured they’d be activists. Face it, this is a political gig. But are these activists random loonies like MOVE, or are they radicals like Malcom X with actual movements? Do they have ties to the actual Lakota power structure? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/82 "2007-12-21T04:50:12Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Captain Amazing: I figured they’d be activists. Face it, this is a political gig. But are these activists random loonies like MOVE, or are they radicals like Malcom X with actual movements? Do they have ties to the actual Lakota power structure? [/QUOTE] It’s complicated. In the late 60s, there was a movement among American Indians called the “Red Power movement” (obviously based on the Black Power movement) It sought to restore a sense of Native idenity and fight anti-Indian stereotypes. One of the big organizations behind the movement was a group called the American Indian Movement, or AIM. AIM engaged in protests and direct action, both legal and otherwise. One of their big tactics was the “siezure” in which they’d go someplace and just stay there and refuse to leave. They occupied the Mayflower replica on Thanksgiving Day, they occupied Mt. Rushmore, the offices of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Alcatraz, and most tragically, Wounded Knee, which ended in two people dead. Do/did they have ties to the Lakota power structure? As far as I can tell, not really, for the most part. If anything, it’s an oppositional relationship. They see the existing tribal governments as corrupt puppets who go along with the oppression of the Indians by the US government. In the case of Russell Means, he doesn’t even have the support of the AIM anymore, as they made clear after Means was arrested for assaulting his father-in-law. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/83 "2007-12-21T11:25:07Z")
Thanks, Cap. So this is definitely a gang of Posse Commitatus style yutzes. With a point, I won’t deny, but they’re yutzes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/84 "2007-12-21T13:04:56Z")
One cannot help but conjure up the image of 18th century British parliamentarians, opinining on the nefarious character of rebels in the colonies amidst suppressing tacky coughs brought on by irritating wig powder. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/85 "2007-12-21T15:12:26Z")
I have the image of a failed OP, followed by attempts at a self-hijack (Iraq) and then sniping at posters who’ve brought useful information to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/86 "2007-12-21T15:50:52Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] As a semi-paleoconservative sort, I must ask brother Liberal if the part about liens on private land offends him as much as it does me. Tain’t theirs. Specially if it means the _whole_ area as implied. [/quote] Aren’t they in fact claiming it _is_ theirs and has been for the past several hundred years? In that case, I can see a point for you to disagree with them about but I don’t see anything for you to be offended about. They’re not bypassing the game of ownership, rather, they’re making claims _within_ the ownership game.\* -FrL- \*some games are played for real, just to head off a misunderstanding there… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/87 "2007-12-21T16:33:53Z")
Lib, you’re telling me that putting liens on other people’s property doesn’t offend libertarian sensibilities? And really, Lib, I don’t think anyone disagrees that the BIA is an organization that needs to be lit on fire. The only problem with doing so is that you might get Homeland Security, instead of Civil Defense. Civil Defense _worked_. Well, the entire area of several states, if I’m reading this, is what they’re claiming. Placing liens on the individual properties that the owners themselves will not know about until such time as they attempt to sell? No, that’s not kosher. You don’t know liens are there till someone does a title check. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/88 "2007-12-24T07:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** : The American government is an easy target for Indians to blame for their poor status. It’s certainly true that the United States government historically screwed over Indians. But nowadays in many cases, the person who’s most likely to be screwing over an Indian is another Indian. The reason 97% are poor is because the other 3% have taken everything. Many Indian nations are set up where a handful of people run all the businesses and use strongarm enforcers to quell any dissent within the nation and loud cries of sovereign rights to avert any challenges from outside. Do you have a cite for this? Even if your information is correct, you can’t blame all of the Lakotas for what three percent may have done and you certainly don’t leave them to suffer in the squalor. And the U.S. government continues to interfere with reasonable projects on the reservation. When the Lakotas in South Dakota discovered that the hemp that grew easily in the wild could be used in the construction of buildings, how long do you think the U.S. allowed the production to continue? And I’m not talking about regular MJ plants. The Lakota who live in Pine Ridge, South Dakota live at the lowest poverty level in the United States. These are the poorest of the poor. Many of them don’t have fuel to heat there homes. Imagine living on the plains in South Dakota without insulated shelter or heat. When you are that cold and without food, you don’t care whose fault it is. Scarves, hats and mittens are always welcome. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/89 "2007-12-24T10:58:12Z")
Heard on the commentary section on the news that this Lakota Nation they’re starting is going to be a tax-free paradise for all. [http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA) Hm. Fun fact. If they accepted the eminent domain of the Black Hills, there’d be a _billion_ dollars in it for 'em. That’d sure help the starving poor in Pine Ridge. > **[Lakota group secedes from U.S.](https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/lakota-group-secedes-from-u-s/article_43e36124-43fc-5e9d-b102-65584e665dda.html)** > > Political activist Russell Means, a founder of the American Indian Movement, says he and other members of Lakota tribes have renounced treaties and are withdrawing from the United States. Here’s what a local columnist seems to think of all it. With a name like Yellow Bird, she does seem to be involved in the issue. [http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=61340§ion=columnists&columnist=Dorreen%20Yellow%20Bird](http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=61340§ion=columnists&columnist=Dorreen%20Yellow%20Bird) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/90 "2007-12-24T19:35:36Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > And the U.S. government continues to interfere with reasonable projects on the reservation. When the Lakotas in South Dakota discovered that the hemp that grew easily in the wild could be used in the construction of buildings, how long do you think the U.S. allowed the production to continue? And I’m not talking about regular MJ plants. Where did you get that perspective on the issue? You seriously think that hemp farming is easier for white people or this is kicking the ladder out from under the Indians? [Court Rejects North Dakota Farmers’ Bid to Grow Industrial Hemp](http://votehemp.com/PR/11-29-07_court_decision_rejects.html) > [@](#): > > Two North Dakota farmers, who filed a federal lawsuit in June to end the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration’s (DEA) ban on commercial hemp farming in the United States, had their case dismissed by federal Judge Daniel Hovland yesterday. In a 22-page decision, Judge Hovland wrote that the problem facing state-licensed hemp farmers David Monson and Wayne Hauge needs to be addressed by Congress if they hope to ever grow the versatile crop which is used in everything from food and soap to clothing and auto parts. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/91 "2007-12-27T20:21:59Z")
I remember back in 1982, Key West “seceded” from the United States, and you know what happened? Nothing at all. And they get to make “Conch Republic” t-shirts and issue novelty passports. The U.S. government will let pretty much anyone spout off at the mouth, secede, or make whatever other statement they want as long as they don’t really try anything. Let Key West send it’s police department to throw the Navy off of the base, and see what happens… ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/92 "2007-12-28T14:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] You seem to be saying the new nation would be only today’s reservation land. That’s not how I understand the proclamation. It isn’t clearly stated, but I understood it to mean all the land the Lakota would have had if the treaties had been honored. When Means said “the eastern parts of South Dakota and North Dakota,” I took it to mean just that. I have perused the links so far, and I can’t find the part where they mean only the reservations. [/QUOTE] It would be interesting to see how they evict the current residents. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/93 "2008-01-01T19:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] It would be interesting to see how they evict the current residents. [/QUOTE] I imagine they’ll Sioux. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699/94 "2008-01-02T17:59:42Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] If you think Bolivia will risk its planes flying over U.S. airspace without clear permission from the U.S. to do so, I’ll throw in some oceanfront property in North Dakota. [/QUOTE] Or that Mexico or Canada would aid them by letting them use their airports. Or that Bolivia isn’t one of the most economically depressed countries in the world, not particularly able to give aid to much of anyone, their native Socialist President aside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lakota-have-declared-independence-from-the-u-s-ed-title/430699.md?page=4)