# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/281 "2016-04-13T20:40:12Z")
I myself once went into a ladies room. It was at an affair of some sort, and the basement where the bathrooms were was under construction (I later saw the sign handwritten on a piece of cardboard) and it wasn’t so clear which bathroom was which. I didn’t encounter anyone on the way in, but on the way out I met a woman entering who asked if I was aware that this was the ladies room. I said “it is?” and a voice called out from another stall saying “yes, it is!!”. Kind of embarrassing at the time, but I lived it down. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He asked me why I’d confront the man. Yeah, because you had brought up that you would confront the guy. He was just trying to get you to agree that you would respect the feelings of a woman who was just uncomfortable with men in the bathroom. You brought up confrontations, so he went with that, but only because that seemed to be an acknowledgement of that. Then you turned around and started coming up with reasons for why you wouldn’t want to confront this or that guy, but that’s all a tangent in the context of his initial question and point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/282 "2016-04-13T20:46:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I myself once went into a ladies room. It was at an affair of some sort, and the basement where the bathrooms were was under construction (I later saw the sign handwritten on a piece of cardboard) and it wasn’t so clear which bathroom was which. I didn’t encounter anyone on the way in, but on the way out I met a woman entering who asked if I was aware that this was the ladies room. I said “it is?” and a voice called out from another stall saying “yes, it is!!”. > > Kind of embarrassing at the time, but I lived it down.Yeah, because you had brought up that you would confront the guy. > > He was just trying to get you to agree that you would respect the feelings of a woman who was just uncomfortable with men in the bathroom. You brought up confrontations, so he went with that, but only because that seemed to be an acknowledgement of that. Then you turned around and started coming up with reasons for why you wouldn’t want to confront this or that guy, but that’s all a tangent in the context of his initial question and point. Sure, I’d respect the feelings. We’d have a long talk and I would try and be as respectful as possible. I’m pretty sure I’ve said this multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/283 "2016-04-13T21:16:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, I’d respect the feelings. We’d have a long talk and I would try and be as respectful as possible. I’m pretty sure I’ve said this multiple times. And would you similarly respect the feelings if they were uncomfortable with a transgender woman being in the bathroom? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/284 "2016-04-13T21:20:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And would you similarly respect the feelings if they were uncomfortable with a transgender woman being in the bathroom? Sure, at least assuming it wasn’t due to anti trans bigotry. We’d have a long talk. If I thought it was due to bigotry, we’d still have a long talk. Most bigotry can be cured by education. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/285 "2016-04-13T21:47:10Z")
Maybe you can expand upon what you would talk about if: a) They felt “uncomfortable” with a gender-typical man in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because he was a man. b) They felt “uncomfortable” with a transgender woman in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because she was a transgender woman do you feel your attitude about their feelings would be different between the 2 scenarios? why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/286 "2016-04-13T21:57:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe you can expand upon what you would talk about if: > > a) They felt “uncomfortable” with a gender-typical man in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because he was a man. > > b) They felt “uncomfortable” with a transgender woman in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because she was a transgender woman > > do you feel your attitude about their feelings would be different between the 2 scenarios? why or why not? I would ask them why they felt uncomfortable, and go from there. I would probably suspect that it’s more likely that bigotry is involved in scenario (b), but I would still ask questions and try to find out what’s behind it (and what I can do to help) in both scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/287 "2016-04-13T22:05:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would ask them why they felt uncomfortable, and go from there. I would probably suspect that it’s more likely that bigotry is involved in scenario (b), but I would still ask questions and try to find out what’s behind it (and what I can do to help) in both scenarios. And the answers are “I felt uncomfortable because he was a gender-typical man in the woman’s room” or “I felt uncomfortable because she was a transgender woman in the woman’s room” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/288 "2016-04-13T22:10:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And the answers are “I felt uncomfortable because he was a gender-typical man in the woman’s room” or “I felt uncomfortable because she was a transgender woman in the woman’s room” I would dig further – why does this make you feel uncomfortable? If they didn’t want to talk about it, or couldn’t answer it further, then I’d suggest that we go get ice cream. ---
**Author:** ![erocked](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f08c70/32.png) [@erocked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erocked)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/289 "2016-04-13T22:49:00Z")
Many of the posts in this thread, particularly by Lance, don’t seem to acknowledge the existence of transgender people. Sure your saying the word transgender but you seem to be arguing as if transgender women and biologically male are one and the same. You argue that women aren’t bigoted for not wanting a male in the bathroom but then your confounded with the idea that women are bigots for not wanting transgender women in the bathroom. Seems like your applying 2 definitions to transgender people when it fits your argument. Or youre arguing that transgender people are indistinguishable from cisgender males who are only perving in the women’s room. I don’t know what you think, and I’m not putting words in your mouth, but I do think you might understand where other posters are coming from if you could distinguish in your own mind, the difference between transgendered people and cisgender people. Secondly. Could a woman rightfully feel uncomfortable in a restroom with a transgender woman? Sure. Could a man feel rightfully uncomfortable in a restroom with a transgender man? Sure. Does that alone mean that transgendered people should be forced into limbo? They live as their preferred gender except in those awkward situations where they have to use the restroom. Or the even more awkward situation where they don’t come out of the restroom. Is it possible that cisgendered males will go into women’s only areas if the law allowed transgendered people to use these areas? Sure. But doesn’t it also allow the same thing if the law forces transgendered people to use the restrooms/ locker rooms of their birth gender? Lance, that means you can go into a woman’s bathroom today and claim that youre only there because youre actually born a woman and the law forces you to use the women’s room. Is that your true perogative? If the law allowed transgender people access to their preferred gender, well than at least you’d have to dress in drag to pull that off. Something I highly doubt you or most pervs would be willing to do. Huckabee used himself as the analogous perv when he said he would’ve told his gym teacher that he felt like a woman in order to access the high school women’s locker room. I’d bet dollars for donuts he wouldn’t have. He’s just a “good ol boy,” when you ignore what he’s actually saying about himself. Third. If your argument honestly is that there should be no gender segregated restroom at all, then you can’t also argue that people’s comfort in a restroom with the opposite gender is any determinate at all within the concept of any law respecting it. Although I could see the benefit of non gender segregated restrooms, I do not see society as being progressed enough to accept it without multitudes of other problems. Secondly it comes off as an extreme argument intended only to paint the LGBT rights supporters as crazily dismantling society to an unrecognizable mess. As in, I don’t think you actually believe that non gender segregated restrooms are the answer because you don’t seem to argue it but rather use it as a hypothetical. Ie: “well then why don’t we just abolish all bathroom segregation since we’re all just not making any sense anymore.” Also Lance, I think most posters who have engaged with you would like to know what your stance is, and all they get is more of the same response, which is that your logic exceeds their menial abilities. The majority of the rest of your posts end in questions that attempt to reveal a real world scenario that you try to steer into the worst outcome possible. Do you really want to ignore your daughter when she says she’s irreversibly damaged by a transgender person in the restroom? Easily enough, no. I would explain as best I could just as any other parent would. I explained to my son just yesterday why he was grounded for not doing his homework. I explained to my daughter what she should do when a stranger asks her to help find his missing puppy. Certainly your not looking for this low level of answer are you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/290 "2016-04-14T00:12:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe you can expand upon what you would talk about if: > > a) They felt “uncomfortable” with a gender-typical man in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because he was a man. > > b) They felt “uncomfortable” with a transgender woman in the same bathroom, who was doing nothing but using the bathroom, simply because she was a transgender woman > > do you feel your attitude about their feelings would be different between the 2 scenarios? why or why not? Here would be my question: “Why do you think (he or she) chose to be in that restroom? How does (his or her) reason compare to yours?” I’d take it from there. The trans woman in the bathroom was almost certainly there because she was using the restroom that corresponded with her gender identity. **That’s fundamentally different from what the cis man was doing in there, and it’s fundamentally similar to what the cis woman was doing in there.** The two cases are not similar. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/291 "2016-04-14T12:48:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here would be my question: “Why do you think (he or she) chose to be in that restroom? How does (his or her) reason compare to yours?” > > I’d take it from there. > > The trans woman in the bathroom was almost certainly there because she was using the restroom that corresponded with her gender identity. **That’s fundamentally different from what the cis man was doing in there, and it’s fundamentally similar to what the cis woman was doing in there.** > > The two cases are not similar. The gender-typical man was in there to use the bathroom. Same as the transgender woman. Seems pretty similar to me. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/292 "2016-04-14T13:24:38Z")
> [@erocked](#): > > Many of the posts in this thread, particularly by Lance, don’t seem to acknowledge the existence of transgender people. Absolute bullshit. You haven’t read the thread, or the thread that preceded it, and like so many other posters, you don’t know what I’m saying at all and so you simply presume that I oppose bathroom access for transgenders. I don’t. Please don’t drag me into this because you are totally wrong about my thoughts and opinions. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/293 "2016-04-14T13:26:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here would be my question: “Why do you think (he or she) chose to be in that restroom? How does (his or her) reason compare to yours?” > > I’d take it from there. > > The trans woman in the bathroom was almost certainly there because she was using the restroom that corresponded with her gender identity. **That’s fundamentally different from what the cis man was doing in there, and it’s fundamentally similar to what the cis woman was doing in there.** > > The two cases are not similar. But that’s a circular argument. Why should people use restrooms corresponding to their gender? Why have gendered restrooms at all? That’s the larger question I was asking and still can’t get anyone to really answer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/294 "2016-04-14T14:10:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that’s a circular argument. Why should people use restrooms corresponding to their gender? Why have gendered restrooms at all? That’s the larger question I was asking and still can’t get anyone to really answer. I’ve answered it: because most people seem to prefer it, it causes no apparent harm, and thus right now there seems no reason to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/295 "2016-04-14T14:51:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that’s a circular argument. Why should people use restrooms corresponding to their gender? Why have gendered restrooms at all? That’s the larger question I was asking and still can’t get anyone to really answer. Their answer is “Because women feel uncomfortable with a gender-typical man in the women’s bathroom. And because it is not bigoted to oppose a gender-typical man being in a woman’s bathroom, there is no problem with it” They may not want to go on record as saying that, but there really IS no other answer. ---
**Author:** ![erocked](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f08c70/32.png) [@erocked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erocked)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/296 "2016-04-14T15:02:24Z")
A group of scientists placed five monkeys in a cage, and in the middle, a ladder with bananas on top. Every time a monkey went up the ladder, the scientists soaked the rest of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, every time a monkey would start up the ladder, the others would pull it down and beat it up. After a time, no monkey would dare try climbing the ladder, no matter how great the temptation. The scientists then decided to replace one of the monkeys. The first thing this new monkey did was start to climb the ladder. Immediately, the others pulled him down and beat him up. After several beatings, the new monkey learned never to go up the ladder, even though there was no evident reason not to, aside from the beatings. The second monkey was substituted and the same occurred. The first monkey participated in the beating of the second monkey. A third monkey was changed and the same was repeated. The fourth monkey was changed, resulting in the same, before the fifth was finally replaced as well. What was left was a group of five monkeys that – without ever having received a cold shower – continued to beat up any monkey who attempted to climb the ladder. If it was possible to ask the monkeys why they beat up on all those who attempted to climb the ladder, their most likely answer would be “I don’t know. It’s just how things are done around here.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/297 "2016-04-14T15:14:41Z")
Not that this story has any logical connection to what we’re discussing here, but since you brought it up anyway it’s perhaps worth noting that it’s apparently [not a true story](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction). [Also, you’ve apparently C&Ped this story from elsewhere without noting that fact.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/298 "2016-04-14T15:16:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Their answer is “Because women feel uncomfortable with a gender-typical man in the women’s bathroom. And because it is not bigoted to oppose a gender-typical man being in a woman’s bathroom, there is no problem with it” > > They may not want to go on record as saying that, but there really IS no other answer. You missed my answer. ---
**Author:** ![erocked](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f08c70/32.png) [@erocked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erocked)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/299 "2016-04-14T15:17:56Z")
> **[Stephenson (1966) - Cultural Acquisition of A Specific Learned Response Among...](https://www.scribd.com/doc/106891948/Stephenson-G-R-1967-Cultural-Acquisition-of-a-Specific-Learned-Response-Among-Rhesus-Monkeys-in-Starek-D-Schneider-R-And-Kuhn-H-J-Eds)** > > Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site. Cultural acquisition of a learned response among Rhesus monkeys ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/300 "2016-04-14T15:22:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You missed my answer. I’m sure I can come up with some harm if I really tried, but it will just be dismissed as “That’s not harm because you are a gender-typical man, and thus cannot be harmed by injustice. Now be quiet and go use your separate but equal bathroom!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=16)