# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/301 "2016-04-14T15:27:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m sure I can come up with some harm if I really tried, but it will just be dismissed as “That’s not harm because you are a gender-typical man, and thus cannot be harmed by injustice. Now be quiet and go use your separate but equal bathroom!” No, I’m open to the possibility of harm, but until it’s demonstrated satisfactorily, then my position remains. But if you just want to beat up straw man, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/302 "2016-04-14T15:30:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I’m open to the possibility of harm, but until it’s demonstrated satisfactorily, then my position remains. > > But if you just want to beat up straw man, go ahead. I’m harmed by the fact that I may get arrested or worse if I attempt to use the women’s bathroom because someone is in the men’s room and I REALLY have to pee. Laws making it illegal for me to enter the women’s room harm me in this scenario. How does that rank on your “Scale O’ Harm”? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/303 "2016-04-14T15:30:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I’m open to the possibility of harm, but until it’s demonstrated satisfactorily, then my position remains. What exactly would “harm demonstrated satisfactorily” mean? How will you know it when you see it? It seems you define harm as “whatever fits my preconceived outcome,” allowing you to constantly dodge the issue. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/304 "2016-04-14T15:31:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m harmed by the fact that I may get arrested or worse if I attempt to use the women’s bathroom because someone is in the men’s room and I REALLY have to pee. Laws making it illegal for me to enter the women’s room harm me in this scenario. How does that rank on your “Scale O’ Harm”? I think I know what his answer will be but I will wait for it to see if I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/305 "2016-04-14T15:53:26Z")
**iiandyiiii** , you appear to have collected the most fascinating fanclub. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/306 "2016-04-14T15:59:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What exactly would “harm demonstrated satisfactorily” mean? How will you know it when you see it? It seems you define harm as “whatever fits my preconceived outcome,” allowing you to constantly dodge the issue. I’d have to evaluate it and use my judgment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/307 "2016-04-14T16:01:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m harmed by the fact that I may get arrested or worse if I attempt to use the women’s bathroom because someone is in the men’s room and I REALLY have to pee. Laws making it illegal for me to enter the women’s room harm me in this scenario. How does that rank on your “Scale O’ Harm”? I oppose such laws and don’t think they’re necessary. Common practice and culture has been the driver for gendered bathrooms, not law. Laws are only needed, in my opinion, to prevent harmful discrimination if it is occurring ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/308 "2016-04-14T16:09:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d have to evaluate it and use my judgment. So evaluate the situation I gave you in which a woman is uncomfortable with having a man who she knows is male and she knows is not there for nefarious or lewd purposes in the lady’s room with her. She knows this, so you can’t say you have to wait to find out. The only possible harm is that she must tolerate his presence despite her discomfort, or she must leave the restroom and not use it. Is that harm, or not? It’s a yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/309 "2016-04-14T16:10:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I oppose such laws and don’t think they’re necessary. Common practice and culture has been the driver for gendered bathrooms, not law. Laws are only needed, in my opinion, to prevent harmful discrimination if it is occurring That’s more dodging though. If common practice changes, does that mean we should accept the overturn of that social norm, or try to preserve it? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/310 "2016-04-14T16:17:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **iiandyiiii** , you appear to have collected the most fascinating fanclub. > . Not really, just an interesting topic to discuss while I’m at work 🙂 It’s tough to find someone willing to discuss an issue without resorting to extreme displays of emotion or personal attacks, so I commend \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*for that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/311 "2016-04-14T16:22:31Z")
> [@erocked](#): > > [Stephenson, G. R. (1967). Cultural Acquisition of a Specific Learned Response Among Rhesus Monkeys. in Starek, D., Schneider, R., And Kuhn, H. J. (Eds.), Progress in Primatology, Stuttgart Fischer, Pp. 279-28 | PDF | Classical Conditioning | Learning](http://www.scribd.com/doc/106891948/Stephenson-G-R-1967-Cultural-Acquisition-of-a-Specific-Learned-Response-Among-Rhesus-Monkeys-in-Starek-D-Schneider-R-And-Kuhn-H-J-Eds) > > Cultural acquisition of a learned response among Rhesus monkeys My company’s filter blocks filesharing sites. But if you read my cite (or any number of others available) it discusses the Stephenson experiment, which was not what you described. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/312 "2016-04-14T16:27:18Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So evaluate the situation I gave you in which a woman is uncomfortable with having a man who she knows is male and she knows is not there for nefarious or lewd purposes in the lady’s room with her. She knows this, so you can’t say you have to wait to find out. The only possible harm is that she must tolerate his presence despite her discomfort, or she must leave the restroom and not use it. > > Is that harm, or not? It’s a yes or no. It doesn’t sound like it to me, but I would have to dig and ask questions. If she had reason to believe that the man is there for one of the 4 through 8 reasons LHOD mentioned (which is almost certain if he’s not a janitor or the men’s room is usable), then that is probably harm, and like him I don’t understand what other reasons are possible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/313 "2016-04-14T16:28:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s more dodging though. If common practice changes, does that mean we should accept the overturn of that social norm, or try to preserve it? If the change causes no harm, than accepting it seems fine to me. It’s not a dodge… That really is the reason, and there’s nothing wrong with it except that you don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/314 "2016-04-14T16:37:20Z")
Anyone want to start all over again in [Great Debates?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=790389) This one includes “How do we keep the perverts out?” and doesn’t know the difference between “gay” and “transgender”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/315 "2016-04-14T16:56:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Anyone want to start all over again in [Great Debates?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=790389) This one includes “How do we keep the perverts out?” and doesn’t know the difference between “gay” and “transgender”. You had me at “perverts”! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/316 "2016-04-14T17:39:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It doesn’t sound like it to me, but I would have to dig and ask questions. If she had reason to believe that the man is there for one of the 4 through 8 reasons LHOD mentioned (which is almost certain if he’s not a janitor or the men’s room is usable), then that is probably harm, and like him I don’t understand what other reasons are possible. You are STILL DOING IT. It DOES NOT MATTER why the man is in there, except perhaps to help a child or rescue someone who is trapped in the toilet or something. If he’s just using the restroom, and she is uncomfortable with that, SHE doesn’t care why. SHE - your duaghter, wife, whatever - says SHE doesn’t care, that HER feelings about it are all that matter to her. What do you say to her? Do her feelings that a man doesn’t belong in the women’s room just because he is male matter to you, or not? For God’s sake, just answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/317 "2016-04-14T17:41:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If the change causes no harm, than accepting it seems fine to me. > > It’s not a dodge… That really is the reason, and there’s nothing wrong with it except that you don’t like it. It’s a giant circle. You get to keep saying “if it causes harm, but I don’t know, I’d have to research it” and all that. At least admit that this leaves the possiblity open that you might decide that the feelings of other people about their privacy preferences might not matter to you and you are open to forcing your views on them because you find now “harm” in doing so. You can’t deny that because you haven’t definitely said no. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/318 "2016-04-14T18:03:52Z")
Jesus. This is really important to you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/319 "2016-04-14T18:36:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You are STILL DOING IT. > > It DOES NOT MATTER why the man is in there, except perhaps to help a child or rescue someone who is trapped in the toilet or something. If he’s just using the restroom, and she is uncomfortable with that, SHE doesn’t care why. SHE - your duaghter, wife, whatever - says SHE doesn’t care, that HER feelings about it are all that matter to her. What do you say to her? Do her feelings that a man doesn’t belong in the women’s room just because he is male matter to you, or not? > > For God’s sake, just answer the question. Sure they matter to me. My wife’s feelings about any and everything matter to me. That’s why we would talk about it so I could see how I could help, as well as understand the root of her feelings. I don’t understand what the problem is. This is really how I feel. I’m doing my best and providing answers, and all you say is that I’m dodging or “still doing it”, whatever that means. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/320 "2016-04-14T18:39:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s a giant circle. You get to keep saying “if it causes harm, but I don’t know, I’d have to research it” and all that. > > At least admit that this leaves the possiblity open that you might decide that the feelings of other people about their privacy preferences might not matter to you and you are open to forcing your views on them because you find now “harm” in doing so. You can’t deny that because you haven’t definitely said no. Sometimes people really don’t have answers ready. Why is “I don’t know” such a problem? I don’t understand at all the “feelings don’t matter to me” stuff. What would you do differently about these feelings that shows they matter? How does wanting to ask about them and dig mean that they don’t matter? If they didn’t matter, I wouldn’t even ask at all- I wouldn’t care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=17)