# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/361 "2016-04-14T20:27:14Z")
> [@andros](#): > > One is a gay woman, the other a straight man. That one’s super simple. > > Because, as stated above, we tend to distinguish based on gender, not on sexual orientation. Whether or not a woman has a penis is irrelevant. I see. So lewd behavior doesn’t depend on actions, but simply what the person performing the lewd act of “standing naked in the women’s locker room” is thinking about themselves? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/362 "2016-04-14T20:33:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So lewd behavior doesn’t depend on actions, but simply what the person performing the lewd act of “standing naked in the women’s locker room” is thinking about themselves? :shrug: Ok, if you say so. (I make no judgments on “lewd.”) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/363 "2016-04-14T20:37:42Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :shrug: Ok, if you say so. > > (I make no judgments on “lewd.”) actually never mind, I wasn’t really discussing this part of the topic anyway. I don’t really care who is in what locker room or bathroom or whatever. I would, however, be happy to move the old, naked dudes that sit around nakedly talking for hours to another locker room. Put a towel on! Coed showers for the win! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/364 "2016-04-14T20:39:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So lewd behavior doesn’t depend on actions, but simply what the person performing the lewd act of “standing naked in the women’s locker room” is thinking about themselves? No, since anyone can behave lewdly in any place. But depending on one’s gender identity, in our culture and society, the same action might be lewd for one and not for another. Lewdness is subjective, and different cultures and societies, and even different people, might see things differently. I think that treating trans people differently than others of the same gender identity with regards to bathrooms is wrong and bigoted, so considering an action that for a cis woman would be normal, unacceptable or lewd for a trans woman, is wrong and bigoted IMO. But due to culture and societal conventions, I don’t believe the same is necessarily true for people of different gender identities. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/365 "2016-04-14T20:40:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Coed showers for the win! Perv! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/366 "2016-04-14T20:44:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > NI think that treating trans people differently than others of the same gender identity with regards to bathrooms is wrong and bigoted, so considering an action that for a cis woman would be normal, unacceptable or lewd for a trans woman, is wrong and bigoted IMO. > > But due to culture and societal conventions, I don’t believe the same is necessarily true for people of different gender identities. Why is “culture and societal conventions” enough justification to treat people differently in the case of people of different gender identities and not enough in the case of people of the same gender identity? What makes one bigoted and unacceptable and the other one OK? They seem the same to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/367 "2016-04-14T20:54:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why is “culture and societal conventions” enough justification to treat people differently in the case of people of different gender identities and not enough in the case of people of the same gender identity? What makes one bigoted and unacceptable and the other one OK? They seem the same to me. In my judgment, because one had demonstrably caused much harm, and the other has not. There have certainly been harmful societal practices, and those should end. But based on my judgment, gendered bathrooms is not one of these. I could be wrong, but that’s what I believe right now. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/368 "2016-04-14T20:58:58Z")
“demonstrably caused much harm” is not the same thing as “bigoted”. You seem to be making two separate distinctions, and bouncing back and forth as needed. Post #364 didn’t mention anything about causing harm - only about one being bigoted and one not. (The latter got credit for being due to societal conventions.) I was asking about that distinction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/369 "2016-04-14T21:43:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “demonstrably caused much harm” is not the same thing as “bigoted”. You seem to be making two separate distinctions, and bouncing back and forth as needed. > > Post #364 didn’t mention anything about causing harm - only about one being bigoted and one not. (The latter got credit for being due to societal conventions.) I was asking about that distinction. I think harm goes into the definition of bigotry, at least as I was using it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/370 "2016-04-14T21:49:35Z")
I don’t understand this. You seem to be saying any woman who feels discomfort with transwomen in her bathroom is having bigoted feelings. The harm you’re referring to can’t be the harm from this woman’s feelings in this bathroom (otherwise your argument would be completely circular). So you’re saying that because in other instances people’s discomfort with transpeople has caused harm (presumably because of violent expressions of this?) therefore anyone who feels some level of discomfort with transpeople in bathrooms, despite no intent to harm anyone, is feeling a bigoted feeling, and therefore this feeling is more easily discounted than a comparable feeling which is not associated with harm. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/371 "2016-04-14T22:04:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t understand this. > > You seem to be saying any woman who feels discomfort with transwomen in her bathroom is having bigoted feelings. The harm you’re referring to can’t be the harm from this woman’s feelings in this bathroom (otherwise your argument would be completely circular). So you’re saying that because in other instances people’s discomfort with transpeople has caused harm (presumably because of violent expressions of this?) therefore anyone who feels some level of discomfort with transpeople in bathrooms, despite no intent to harm anyone, is feeling a bigoted feeling, and therefore this feeling is more easily discounted than a comparable feeling which is not associated with harm. > > Is that correct? Okay, bigoted actions then, like discrimination, which is my larger concern, rather than bigoted feelings. I am large, and contain multitudes. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/372 "2016-04-14T22:50:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s no such thing as a “male who is a transgender female”. Whatever, you know what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/373 "2016-04-14T22:52:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, bigoted actions then, like discrimination, which is my larger concern, rather than bigoted feelings. By teaching boys in school to use the boys room only, and girls to use the girls room only, are we teaching children to be bigots who hate the opposite sex? Or something else? Should we stop teaching that in school and let the sexes just mix in bathrooms? After all, we’re not preventing any harm from that by separating the sexes, are we? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/374 "2016-04-14T22:54:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Whatever, you know what I meant. Not really. There are two possibilities, and I don’t know which one you meant. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/375 "2016-04-14T22:55:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > By teaching boys in school to use the boys room only, and girls to use the girls room only, are we teaching children to be bigots who hate the opposite sex? > > Or something else? Should we stop teaching that in school and let the sexes just mix in bathrooms? After all, we’re not preventing any harm from that by separating the sexes, are we? I’m fine with gendered bathrooms and with non gendered bathrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/376 "2016-04-15T02:06:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, since anyone can behave lewdly in any place. But depending on one’s gender identity, in our culture and society, the same action might be lewd for one and not for another. Similar to the fact that in most states, a man can go shirtless but a woman cannot? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/377 "2016-04-15T14:32:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m fine with gendered bathrooms and with non gendered bathrooms. Well, if ever there was a response that shows that you’re determined not to answer questions or at least take a position, this is it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/378 "2016-04-15T14:44:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, if ever there was a response that shows that you’re determined not to answer questions or at least take a position, this is it. Why do I need to take a position if i think they’re both fine? Why the need for 100% black and white certainty? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/379 "2016-04-15T15:36:57Z")
Did we get to the poly marriage part yet? I’m bored… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/380 "2016-04-15T15:38:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Did we get to the poly marriage part yet? I’m bored… Start your own thread then - this one is mine! Has my name on it and everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=20)