# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/41 "2016-04-06T02:53:15Z")
Count me among those who appreciate your contributions to the SDMB, Una. I’m always excited to see your name above a post. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/42 "2016-04-06T05:20:54Z")
I can point to scores of transgender women locally who have had everything happen to them from catcalls to rape happen as a result of being forced to use the men’s room, or being too scared to _not_ use it (out of fear of legal repercussions, real or imagined). I have witnessed it happening with my own eyes. I have to counsel transgender people who have suffered abuse by using the bathroom aligning with their genetic sex. Will some be harassed from using the bathroom congruent with their gender identity? Yes, some are (very mostly transwomen). I’ve witnessed that too, and I run “interference” for new transgender women. But they’d rather be yelled at or have rude comments made, then get punched, kicked, or worse by using the men’s room. And transgender men have a similar fear - if they walked into the women’s room with a full beard and dressed male, they’re lucky if they only get thrown out by the management. Often the police are called. I personally know of, a transgender man was arrested for using the ladies room - despite having a vagina and female urinary equipment - with a charge of “disturbing the peace.” Because he was scared of being arrested for going into the men’s room. Yet at the same time, he was informed by the cop that he could also be arrested for using the men’s room! When the attorney we hired for him asked the cop which bathroom exactly Troy was supposed to use, since he could be arrested in either, the cop said “shoulda thought of that before _it_ decided to live that lifestyle.” We got the charge dismissed quickly by a very sympathetic judge, but there was still a 4-figure attorney fee and an overnight stay in a cell. For going into a private stall and peeing. And this is what the anti-transgender bigots (despite how well they try to hide it in circular logic and concern trolling, those trying to force us to use a bathroom not in alignment with our gender identity are exactly that) are quite happy to have happen to us. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/43 "2016-04-06T06:08:49Z")
I think that getting the transgender men involved will help the cause. ISTM that those supporting these laws are focusing on transgender females using the women’s restrooms and not so much on the fact that with these laws they will force transgender males to use the women’s restrooms. In their sexist fashion, they tend to ignore transgender males or to see them as weaker than cis-males(and I do think that there is less awareness of transgender males in this society) but faced with the reality of males using the women’s restrooms, they may change their thinking. It almost makes me want to start a protest, get all of the females I know to dress in male drag and stage a restroom sit-in. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/44 "2016-04-06T10:18:23Z")
I love you too, **Una** , and I’ve learned a ton about trans people and issues from your posts on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/45 "2016-04-06T13:32:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you be using it because you would feel safer there…or because you want to march in there _giggle_ “just to prove a point”? I just want to use the couch. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/46 "2016-04-06T13:34:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wouldn’t, unless it was for lewd or lascivious or exhibitionist reasons. Well, that’s great then! 🙂 I’m a little old to be going into a women’s room for lewd or lascivious or exhibitionist reasons. I would use it if the men’s room was closed or occupied. I usually dance around holding it now, because I fear ramifications of using a room marked “women” even if it’s a single room, with a lock on it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/47 "2016-04-06T13:37:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > No it’s not. I’ve posted so many times on this subject, from direct personal experience, from testimony, and from actual professional experience. I seem to remember you participating in those threads. You don’t get to declare victory and call it a “moot point.” I don’t recall any of this. And while it’s not completely impossible that I’ve forgotten something I’ve read on an issue that’s not a huge deal to me either way, it’s more likely that I’ve not read those posts/threads (they tend to be extremely long) and/or you’re confused about something - which is what turned out to be the case last time you made this type of accusation. I don’t think accusing people of duplicity based on some vague recollection that they might have participated in some thread speaks well of you. But if you have any integrity at all, whip out the thread(s) you’re referring to and let’s see what really happened. > [@](#): > > It’s also very easily Googlable, and has been posted here several times, the issue of transgender men being forced to use a women’s room. You really think cisgender women are going to be more comfortable standing at the sink next to a bald guy with a great big old beard dressed in flannel? And believe me, most of them are very sexually interested in women. Everyone seems to focus on the transgender women, and pretends like the transgender men don’t exist. > > It’s really annoying to have to keep posting the same things again and again. I even posted a photo of me and asked the anti-transgender people on here what bathroom I belong in. **Eve** asked me yesterday why I bother to post here any more, and instead focus on my IRL social work where I actually educate people and fight bigotry directly. Perhaps it’s finally time to go. If these stats are so easily accessible it probably would have been a lot easier for you to post them, considering the amount of martyred whining you’re engaging in here. But of course, that would not have produced such a outpouring of adulation from your PC sycophants, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/48 "2016-04-06T13:43:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t recall any of this. And while it’s not completely impossible that I’ve forgotten something I’ve read on an issue that’s not a huge deal to me either way, it’s more likely that I’ve not read those posts/threads (they tend to be extremely long) and/or you’re confused about something - which is what turned out to be the case last time you made this type of accusation. > > I don’t think accusing people of duplicity based on some vague recollection that they might have participated in some thread speaks well of you. But if you have any integrity at all, whip out the thread(s) you’re referring to and let’s see what really happened. > > If these stats are so easily accessible it probably would have been a lot easier for you to post them, considering the amount of martyred whining you’re engaging in here. But of course, that would not have produced such a outpouring of adulation from your PC sycophants, so there’s that. When those who disagree with you are nothing more than “PC sycophants”, it’s incredibly easy to ignore and dismiss their disagreements. Considering the possibility that you may have some subconscious or otherwise unknown biases and even bigotries, or just plain old ignorance on a topic, is probably a lot harder. I’m still curious about your answer to **andros** ’s question – do you consider transwomen to be women, and transmen to be men? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/49 "2016-04-06T13:50:54Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > It’s also very easily Googlable, and has been posted here several times, the issue of transgender men being forced to use a women’s room. You really think cisgender women are going to be more comfortable standing at the sink next to a bald guy with a great big old beard dressed in flannel? Could you expand on this a little? How are transgender men being ‘forced’ to use a women’s room? Don’t they look like men? How does anyone know they are transgendered? I guess the same question for transgender women. How does anyone know they are transgendered when they go into a women’s room? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/50 "2016-04-06T14:31:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If these stats are so easily accessible it probably would have been a lot easier for you to post them, considering the amount of martyred whining you’re engaging in here. But of course, that would not have produced such a outpouring of adulation from your PC sycophants, so there’s that. :rolleyes: Poor you, lacking PC sycophants, when clearly you’re just as informative and engaging and helpful on this topic as Una! She couldn’t possibly have earned the respect she has around here: if she’s got more respect than you, it must be due to our politically-correct groupthink! Or, y’know, if you want respect, you could do something–anything–that would merit respect. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/51 "2016-04-06T14:33:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Could you expand on this a little? How are transgender men being ‘forced’ to use a women’s room? Don’t they look like men? How does anyone know they are transgendered? > > I guess the same question for transgender women. How does anyone know they are transgendered when they go into a women’s room? In NC, a trans man who uses the men’s room at a public university or other government building is breaking the law. That trans man may not successfully pass as a trans man; or somebody might know that he’s trans and see him go into the bathroom and report him. Criminalizing his use of the men’s room pretty much counts as forcing him to use the women’s room, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/52 "2016-04-06T14:33:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :rolleyes: Poor you, lacking PC sycophants, when clearly you’re just as informative and engaging and helpful on this topic as Una! She couldn’t possibly have earned the respect she has around here: if she’s got more respect than you, it must be due to our politically-correct groupthink! > > Or, y’know, if you want respect, you could do something–anything–that would merit respect. Your concern is noted, but unnecessary. If the sad day comes that I’d be looking for respect from the likes of you, I already know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/53 "2016-04-06T14:35:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your concern is noted, but unnecessary. > > If the sad day comes that I’d be looking for respect from the likes of you, I already know what to do. Be proud of your personal growth? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/54 "2016-04-06T15:27:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In NC, a trans man who uses the men’s room at a public university or other government building is breaking the law. That trans man may not successfully pass as a trans man; or somebody might know that he’s trans and see him go into the bathroom and report him. > > Criminalizing his use of the men’s room pretty much counts as forcing him to use the women’s room, in my book. Fair enough. Just curious how a transgender man with a full beard and flannel clothes would be busted going into a men’s room. Also, I can’t believe people care about who might be using the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/55 "2016-04-06T15:32:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair enough. Just curious how a transgender man with a full beard and flannel clothes would be busted going into a men’s room. > > Also, I can’t believe people care about who might be using the bathroom. Do you think this bigoted laws just pass themselves? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/56 "2016-04-06T15:33:57Z")
Look, **Barmy** \*, I understand that you think me merely a “PC sycophant” and therefore unworthy of your time. Hell, you might well have me on ignore. But I’m sincerely, honestly interested in understanding where you’re coming from. I work with transgender individuals regularly–in a couple different senses of the term; I have both co-workers and clients who are trans. My best friend is trans. I have long considered myself a trans ally, as well as being part of the “LGBT community.” So you see that these issues are both important and fascinating to me. A lot of the pushback I see in transgender rights issues–not all, but a lot–comes from people who legitimately do not see transgender people as, well, honest. They consider it a “lifestyle choice,” not an identity. They see transwomen, fundamentally, as _men_ who are \*pretending \*to be women, and transmen as women pretending to be men. With that as an initial assumption, much of the resistance follows fairly logically. Obviously I disagree with that premise…but \*if \*you believe that transmen are essentially, inherently, fundamentally women, then it makes sense that you would want them to, well, \*be \*women. So that’s why I ask you your position. Not as one-off snark, not to be a “PC sycophant,” not to be an “SJW,” not to attack you. I want to understand where you’re coming from. **Fotheringay-Phipps** , do you consider transwomen to be women? Do you consider transmen to be men? . \*ETA: I can never really stay grumpy at **Fotheringay-Phipps** –_Barmy in Wonderland_ was the first Wodehouse I ever read, and I still lurve it like mad. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/57 "2016-04-06T15:40:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think this bigoted laws just pass themselves? They don’t? Jeez, thanks for telling me.:rolleyes: “Believe” in the same sense as “I can’t believe people eat durian fruit” or “I can’t believe someone drives a smart car” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/58 "2016-04-06T15:46:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t recall any of this. And while it’s not completely impossible that I’ve forgotten something I’ve read on an issue that’s not a huge deal to me either way, it’s more likely that I’ve not read those posts/threads (they tend to be extremely long) and/or you’re confused about something - which is what turned out to be the case last time you made this type of accusation. > > I don’t think accusing people of duplicity based on some vague recollection that they might have participated in some thread speaks well of you. But if you have any integrity at all, whip out the thread(s) you’re referring to and let’s see what really happened. > > If these stats are so easily accessible it probably would have been a lot easier for you to post them, considering the amount of martyred whining you’re engaging in here. But of course, that would not have produced such a outpouring of adulation from your PC sycophants, so there’s that. PC sycophants? But I use a Mac. That’s not good… ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/59 "2016-04-06T15:50:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Could you expand on this a little? How are transgender men being ‘forced’ to use a women’s room? Don’t they look like men? How does anyone know they are transgendered? They were forced by nature of city ordinance or fear of legal repercussion, or being afoul of “trespass”. In some cases it’s merely just fear. In many cities police forces treat us very, very badly, and just even a 1% chance someone might know you were originally presenting as one gender, and now the other, is too much. And in some cases the transman still looks feminine - some are androgynous enough to get questions. > [@](#): > > I guess the same question for transgender women. How does anyone know they are transgendered when they go into a women’s room? Because generally speaking, most of us have a much more difficult time “passing” then transmen. It’s sad but completely true. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/60 "2016-04-06T15:53:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Look, **Barmy** \*, I understand that you think me merely a “PC sycophant” and therefore unworthy of your time. Hell, you might well have me on ignore. > > But I’m sincerely, honestly interested in understanding where you’re coming from. I work with transgender individuals regularly–in a couple different senses of the term; I have both co-workers and clients who are trans. My best friend is trans. I have long considered myself a trans ally, as well as being part of the “LGBT community.” So you see that these issues are both important and fascinating to me. > > A lot of the pushback I see in transgender rights issues–not all, but a lot–comes from people who legitimately do not see transgender people as, well, honest. They consider it a “lifestyle choice,” not an identity. They see transwomen, fundamentally, as _men_ who are \*pretending \*to be women, and transmen as women pretending to be men. > > With that as an initial assumption, much of the resistance follows fairly logically. Obviously I disagree with that premise…but \*if \*you believe that transmen are essentially, inherently, fundamentally women, then it makes sense that you would want them to, well, \*be \*women. > > So that’s why I ask you your position. Not as one-off snark, not to be a “PC sycophant,” not to be an “SJW,” not to attack you. I want to understand where you’re coming from. > > **Fotheringay-Phipps** , do you consider transwomen to be women? Do you consider transmen to be men? The premises of the question are invalidly binary, in two aspects. [ol] [li]In considering the issue of trans people’s “true” gender as a clear-cut either/or matter that can be settled one way or the other, as opposed to a complex matter that involves many aspects (biological, genetic, psychological, (possibly) self-identity etc.) - and may have different answers as to each, some of which may themselves be ambiguous and/or vary by individual transperson.[/li][li]In considering any and all issues involving trans people as being part of one set of dogma, which one either opposes in toto or supports in toto, such that one can assign people an entire range of positions as supporters or opponents based on their expressed positions on narrow issues, and proceed to question them in order to get a sense of how supporters/opponents think.[/li][/ol] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=4)