# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/61 "2016-04-06T15:59:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t recall any of this. And while it’s not completely impossible that I’ve forgotten something I’ve read on an issue that’s not a huge deal to me either way, it’s more likely that I’ve not read those posts/threads (they tend to be extremely long) and/or you’re confused about something - which is what turned out to be the case last time you made this type of accusation. I didn’t make any other accusation than “I seem to remember you participating in those threads.” Note I didn’t say you absolutely had, nor even what side you are on. You admit in here that you have participated, given your statement above, so you’re not really fooling anyone. > [@](#): > > If these stats are so easily accessible it probably would have been a lot easier for you to post them, considering the amount of martyred whining you’re engaging in here. But of course, that would not have produced such a outpouring of adulation from your PC sycophants, so there’s that. Are you going to address the questions you have been asked? Such as what about the “comfort level” of cisgender women who may be forced be share their bathroom with big ol’ bearded transmen? I can tell you from personal experience that cisgender women REALLY do not like it when Billy Bob the Cajun transman goes into their bathroom - which is what bigoted legislation like that in North Carolina would force him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/62 "2016-04-06T16:04:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The premises of the question are invalidly binary, in two aspects. > > [ol] > [li]In considering the issue of trans people’s “true” gender as a clear-cut either/or matter that can be settled one way or the other, as opposed to a complex matter that involves many aspects (biological, genetic, psychological, (possibly) self-identity etc.) - and may have different answers as to each, some of which may themselves be ambiguous and/or vary by individual transperson.[/li][li]In considering any and all issues involving trans people as being part of one set of dogma, which one either opposes in toto or supports in toto, such that one can assign people an entire range of positions as supporters or opponents based on their expressed positions on narrow issues, and proceed to question them in order to get a sense of how supporters/opponents think.[/li][/ol] There were perhaps easier ways to duck answering the question. I know someone else on here who has done the same tactic when faced with this question. In general, considering a typical non-intersex transgender woman, is she a woman in your viewpoint? Yes or no? If the answer is “no” then we’re done talking, because I do not have the time nor energy to convince you otherwise. If the answer is “yes”, then I’m going to be scratching my head over what your goal here is. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/63 "2016-04-06T16:04:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > They were forced by nature of city ordinance or fear of legal repercussion, or being afoul of “trespass”. In some cases it’s merely just fear. In many cities police forces treat us very, very badly, and just even a 1% chance someone might know you were originally presenting as one gender, and now the other, is too much. And in some cases the transman still looks feminine - some are androgynous enough to get questions. > Because generally speaking, most of us have a much more difficult time “passing” then transmen. It’s sad but completely true. Thank you for the info. I wasn’t thinking “forced” as in against the law, not sure why I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/64 "2016-04-06T16:11:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The premises of the question are invalidly binary, in two aspects. > > [ol] > [li]In considering the issue of trans people’s “true” gender as a clear-cut either/or matter that can be settled one way or the other, as opposed to a complex matter that involves many aspects (biological, genetic, psychological, (possibly) self-identity etc.) - and may have different answers as to each, some of which may themselves be ambiguous and/or vary by individual transperson.[/li][li]In considering any and all issues involving trans people as being part of one set of dogma, which one either opposes in toto or supports in toto, such that one can assign people an entire range of positions as supporters or opponents based on their expressed positions on narrow issues, and proceed to question them in order to get a sense of how supporters/opponents think.[/li][/ol] Forgive me for not being as verbose in my reply. But it certainly appears that the answer is “Not necessarily.” Is that a fair summation? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/65 "2016-04-06T16:16:42Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I didn’t make any other accusation than “I seem to remember you participating in those threads.” Note I didn’t say you absolutely had, nor even what side you are on. You admit in here that you have participated, given your statement above, so you’re not really fooling anyone. You said that you had addressed the issues being discussed in threads in which I participated, and implied, by that and the rest of your post, that I was deliberately ignoring information that you had already presented. That was not straightforward of you. I certainly acknowledge participating in various threads involving trans issues, but I don’t recall bathroom violence ever being a part of the discussions I was involved in, and I’m pretty sure they were not. If you’ve provided this information to other people and are not interested in providing it again, that’s your choice. That doesn’t make you a martyr, or reflect badly on anyone else. > [@](#): > > Are you going to address the questions you have been asked? Such as what about the “comfort level” of cisgender women who may be forced be share their bathroom with big ol’ bearded transmen? I can tell you from personal experience that cisgender women REALLY do not like it when Billy Bob the Cajun transman goes into their bathroom - which is what bigoted legislation like that in North Carolina would force him to do. If that’s the case, then once this becomes apparent then cisgender women in NC will presumably rise up and protest against this law. That has nothing to do with what I’ve been discussing. > [@andros](#): > > Forgive me for not being as verbose in my reply. But it certainly appears that the answer is “Not necessarily.” > > Is that a fair summation? Thanks, but I think I’ll stick with what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/66 "2016-04-06T16:29:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That has nothing to do with what I’ve been discussing.Thanks, but I think I’ll stick with what I wrote. Then can you expand on it? Under what circumstances, in which you know that a person considers themselves a transwoman, would you refer to them as a woman, and under what circumstances would you refer to them as a man, or some other word? If it would take too long to explain, then can you just offer an example or two of the different circumstances in which you’d refer to them as a woman, or man, or some other word? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/67 "2016-04-06T16:46:44Z")
I notice that you’re switching from andros’ question, which was about what I would consider them, to what I would refer to them as. The first is about mental categorization, and the second about practical action. Either way, I’m not sure I’m interested at this time in a full blown discussion that you seem to be aiming for. If you’re really that interested in my opinion about this, you can see some posts in a prior thread, starting around [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16614086&postcount=257). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/68 "2016-04-06T17:03:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You said that you had addressed the issues being discussed in threads in which I participated, and implied, by that and the rest of your post, that I was deliberately ignoring information that you had already presented. That was not straightforward of you. If you say so. I can’t even parse your convoluted answer to the fundamental question of how you view transgender people. If you claim the problem is specifics versus general categorizations, then I’ll play that game. Which bathroom do you personally believe should I have a full legal right to use? Two choices, pick one please (but pick fast, because this coffee just ran right through me!) > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, then once this becomes apparent then cisgender women in NC will presumably rise up and protest against this law. IMO, it’s more likely that transgender men will face continued harassment, arrest, and abuse while the GOP legislature figuratively laughs. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/69 "2016-04-06T17:07:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you’re really that interested in my opinion about this, you can see some posts in a prior thread, starting around [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16614086&postcount=257). You mean the thread in which someone posted the following? > [@"Gender identity" is mental illness](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/349): > > IMO, someone who wants to refer to previous threads as a shorthand is fine, if they actually link to the specific part of the a prior thread which addresses the specific point under discussion. What isn’t nearly as fine is what’s happening here, in which people - led by you, IIRC - have simply linked to a dozen or so prior threads (some or all of which are likely long and discuss many aspects of the issue) and said “hey read through all this stuff and you’ll see that you’re wrong”. > > I mean, you can use the prior threads as an excuse for not bothering to debate the issue in this one. But I don’t think you can make a big deal or harp on someone else for his or her refusal to read a voluminous amount of material just because you claim that somewhere in that vast literature they will find the refutation to their argument. 😉 If your answer stands, fine. I’m sorry you found the question to be so deeply flawed as to preclude a straightforward answer. And unfortunately (for me), I’m no closer to understanding where you’re coming from than before. So it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/70 "2016-04-06T17:24:59Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > If you say so. So I take it that you do not intend to back up your accusation. Unsurprising - I mean, you’re probably too busy with your heroic work and all. > [@](#): > > If you claim the problem is specifics versus general categorizations, then I’ll play that game. Which bathroom do you personally believe should I have a full legal right to use? Two choices, pick one please (but pick fast, because this coffee just ran right through me!) Personally I don’t care, as I’ve indicated earlier. If you have to pass laws about it, it should depend on what the makes the fewest people uncomfortable. But it doesn’t seem to me like something that needs laws one way or the other. If there’s actual evidence that one choice or the other was putting people at increased risk of violence, then that’s a big factor too. My point in this thread was specifically related to the OP, and was that - contrary to the position taken by the OP - the question of “why do we have separate-gendered bathrooms to begin with?” is relevant to the trans question - since the entire point of separate bathrooms is about nothing more than people’s social discomfort, that’s what ultimately counts in who goes where. > [@andros](#): > > You mean the thread in which someone posted the following? > > 😉 Got it right on the first guess. In this thread I both “_actually link[ed] to the specific part of the a prior thread which addresses the specific point under discussion_” and “_use[d] the prior threads as an excuse for not bothering to debate the issue in this one_”, in either of which case I said it was OK, as you so helpfully quoted. > [@](#): > > If your answer stands, fine. I’m sorry you found the question to be so deeply flawed as to preclude a straightforward answer. And unfortunately (for me), I’m no closer to understanding where you’re coming from than before. So it goes. Exactly, so it goes. Be strong - you’ll survive it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/71 "2016-04-06T17:40:02Z")
Meanwhile, [outback in Mississippi…](http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2016/04/02/mississippi-rv-park-owner-evicts-interracial-couple/82469086/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/72 "2016-04-06T17:54:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > My point in this thread was specifically related to the OP, and was that - contrary to the position taken by the OP - the question of “why do we have separate-gendered bathrooms to begin with?” is relevant to the trans question - since the entire point of separate bathrooms is about nothing more than people’s social discomfort, that’s what ultimately counts in who goes where. The question may be relevant, but that’s not contrary to my position. My position is that **lance’s** concerns, that allowing trans people to use gendered bathrooms undermines the use of gendered bathrooms, are trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/73 "2016-04-06T17:57:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So I take it that you do not intend to back up your accusation. Unsurprising - I mean, you’re probably too busy with your heroic work and all. Recalling that you had participated in those threads is not an “accusation,” no matter how you try to spin it for the peanut gallery. More baffling is the fact that you yourself admitted you had participated. The only dispute was whether or not the specific topic of bathrooms was a major plot point in those threads. My “recollection” is not an accusation. Furthermore, as I didn’t even say which side I recalled you being on…help me out here, what are you trying to spin that I accused you of earlier? Or is this obfuscate the topic tactic #27? > [@](#): > > Personally I don’t care, as I’ve indicated earlier. First, that begs the question why you’re posting so much in here on it, and second, it’s another non-answer of yours. You seem to be a very indecisive person. > [@](#): > > If you have to pass laws about it, it should depend on what the makes the fewest people uncomfortable. So is it your opinion that some people being “uncomfortable” outweighs other people being attacked? I recall that was a critical point made in arguments against desegregation of bathrooms and other facilities in the 1960’s, when white folks argued that “them’ thar’ negroes don’t belong in our bathrooms and lunch counters.” But since it’s only my _recollection_, I’m certain that means it must be wrong. > [@](#): > > If there’s actual evidence that one choice or the other was putting people at increased risk of violence, then that’s a big factor too. There is evidence. I provided testimony. Google for it. And your Wiki link doesn’t actually define and stay specifically on the subject of harassment within gender-congruent bathrooms, it’s vague on the subject. It doesn’t back either side up (guessing you didn’t read the PDF). Or you can simply Google further on the subject. Or ask any transgender person. Why don’t you do that? We aren’t going to steal your babies or pollute your precious bodily fluids. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/74 "2016-04-06T18:15:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The question may be relevant, but that’s not contrary to my position. My position is that **lance’s** concerns, that allowing trans people to use gendered bathrooms undermines the use of gendered bathrooms, are trivial. OK, then we may have been talking past each other on this point. My point was again just that the rationale for gendered bathrooms is relevant to the trans issue. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Recalling that you had participated in those threads is not an “accusation,” no matter how you try to spin it for the peanut gallery. More baffling is the fact that you yourself admitted you had participated. The only dispute was whether or not the specific topic of bathrooms was a major plot point in those threads. My “recollection” is not an accusation. Furthermore, as I didn’t even say which side I recalled you being on…help me out here, what are you trying to spin that I accused you of earlier? I addressed this in post #65, first paragraph. Not only is this a thread in which you’re participating, but it was a post directed to you and which you yourself subsequently quoted. And now you pretend to not have seen it and ask me to repeat it again. You earlier indicated that you disapproved of such things. Hmm … > [@](#): > > First, that begs the question why you’re posting so much in here on it This, and anything else I post to this MB, is for my amusement. I wouldn’t have thought this required a long drawn-out back-and-forth, but that’s how it goes sometimes, with some people. > [@](#): > > and second, it’s another non-answer of yours. You seem to be a very indecisive person. I suppose if in your mind the only alternative to “indecisive” is a simpleminded “four legs good two legs bad” approach, you can call me indecisive. > [@](#): > > So is it your opinion that some people being “uncomfortable” outweighs other people being attacked? If you were capable of looking at this through a lens other than the great great suffering of trans people at the hands of their oppressors you might have observed that I said pretty much the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/75 "2016-04-06T18:17:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you were capable of looking at this through a lens other than the great great suffering of trans people at the hands of their oppressors you might have observed that I said pretty much the opposite. Boy you’re a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/76 "2016-04-06T18:19:09Z")
I’m going to tell my mommy on you. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/77 "2016-04-06T18:42:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In this thread I both “_actually link[ed] to the specific part of the a prior thread which addresses the specific point under discussion_” and “_use[d] the prior threads as an excuse for not bothering to debate the issue in this one_”, in either of which case I said it was OK, as you so helpfully quoted. Well. I _was_ trying to be friendly. My apologies if it didn’t come across that way. The post you quoted–someone else’s, oddly enough–that you said was the beginning of your presenting your opinion about whether or not transwomen and transmen are actually women and men, respectively, points to a thread in which you participate relatively little and do not in any event make clear your position. But that’s of no import, really; I get that you are disinclined to make that position clear. You seem not to care about whether or not you are understood by your interlocutors. Indeed, you seem actively to seek conflict for your amusement. I understand that; trolling can be fun. You’ve made it clear that’s all you’re doing–pushing buttons for your own entertainment. Good enough, you do you. . ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/78 "2016-04-06T19:04:17Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Well. I _was_ trying to be friendly. My apologies if it didn’t come across that way. It didn’t, and I doubt it. > [@](#): > > The post you quoted–someone else’s, oddly enough–that you said was the beginning of your presenting your opinion about whether or not transwomen and transmen are actually women and men, respectively, points to a thread in which you participate relatively little and do not in any event make clear your position. I quoted the other person’s post because that person quoted the entire relevant portion of my initial post on the subject. I could have begun with my original post, but that included mostly unrelated matters and in addition there were a lot of other posts on unrelated matters between that one and the one I quoted. But anyone interested in seeing the original F-P post in all its glory needed only to click on the link in the quote-box. So, just trying to be helpful, sorry to disappoint. I wouldn’t say that I clarified my position in that thread, but I certainly shed some light on it if anyone happened to be interested for whatever reason. I generally don’t feel any sense of obligation to clarify my position on any issues I’ve not raised myself. > [@](#): > > You seem not to care about whether or not you are understood by your interlocutors. Indeed, you seem actively to seek conflict for your amusement. I understand that; trolling can be fun. You’ve made it clear that’s all you’re doing–pushing buttons for your own entertainment. Good enough, you do you. > . There’s a smidgeon of truth here, so I’ll address it, because you’re glossing over some subtle distinctions. “Seeking conflict” is not the same thing as “pushing buttons”, let alone “trolling”. I absolutely plead guilty to posting here for my own amusement, and I acknowledge that a lot of what amuses me is battling it out with people who disagree with me, in some cases vehemently. But that’s not the same thing as pushing buttons. I am not trying to get anyone riled up about anything. And I’m certainly not adopting positions that I disagree with in order to achieve that end. (On a board like this, that’s completely unnecessary in any event.) As for being understood, my primary goal is to be understood, but I’m aware that it’s not always possible, especially when many people are firmly wedded to a dogmatic viewpoint and cannot see things other through a carefully constructed paradigm that supports it. Only so much you can do. But what I do generally resist is being drawn into major expansions of the topic onto other issues that others feel more comfortable with, when I’m trying to make a specific point. This is pretty much what happened here, as regards to my exchange with you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/79 "2016-04-06T19:07:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As for being understood, my primary goal is to be understood, but I’m aware that it’s not always possible, especially when many people are firmly wedded to a dogmatic viewpoint and cannot see things other through a carefully constructed paradigm that supports it. Only so much you can do. But what I do generally resist is being drawn into major expansions of the topic onto other issues that others feel more comfortable with, when I’m trying to make a specific point. This is pretty much what happened here, as regards to my exchange with you. What “dogmatic viewpoint” and “carefully constructed paradigm” do you believe we are wedded to? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/80 "2016-04-06T19:08:44Z")
pro-trans vs anti-trans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=5)