# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/101 "2016-04-06T22:21:20Z")
The thing is, it’s inherent in the fact that you refuse to share what your position actually is. There’s no reason not to say it if your position is that “transwomen are fully women.” That would only help your argument that it’s not about that issue. The only reason not to say it is if you think that people could actually see your positions on both as related. This happens a lot. What you say allows people to infer your position, even if you never actually flat out state it. We can’t be sure to what degree you don’t think trans men are really men, but we can tell that you would say it if it were your position. It’s the same way we can read what politicians really mean by what they don’t say. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/102 "2016-04-06T22:23:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but that’s where lance strongarm’s point becomes relevant again. Because despite your exhortations we don’t do that as a society, in accepting gender-separate bathrooms. You need some basis for carving out trans people from the generally accepted principle that society accepts and applies, and you can’t argue for a position based on presumed acceptance of a concept that in reality you yourself support but which society rejects. But we, generally, do do that (minding our own business) – there’s no genital check, no body scanners, etc… most people don’t take any action to verify the gender of the people around them in a bathroom. Even with this laissez faire attitude of most to bathroom access, very few people go to the “wrong” bathroom, because _almost no one is interested in doing that_. Almost everyone wants to go to the bathroom that matches their gender identity. I hold that this will continue, without requiring genital checks (or gender identity checks), if/when transgender people are allowed to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, and thus this concern is trivial and, without some further evidence of changing attitudes/behavior about verification of those around one in a bathroom, not worth being concerned about at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/103 "2016-04-07T00:50:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This, and anything else I post to this MB, is for my amusement. Whereas most of the rest of us are trying to have meaningful discourse. > [@](#): > > I suppose if in your mind the only alternative to “indecisive” is a simpleminded “four legs good two legs bad” approach, you can call me indecisive. And in the vast majority of places in the United States, there are only two options: the men’s room, or the women’s room. I can’t even remember the last time I saw a single-stall or unisex bathroom, maybe a month ago or so. It really is a binary state question in all practicality. I’m certain you know this, from the practical experience of being a person who presumably ventures into public once in a while and sees public bathrooms. Or is that not an apt presumption? So answer the question: **which bathroom do you personally believe should I have a full legal right to use?** Two choices, pick one please. > [@](#): > > If you were capable of looking at this through a lens other than the great great suffering of trans people at the hands of their oppressors you might have observed that I said pretty much the opposite. It’s not coming across that way, that’s for certain. I hardly seem to be alone in that camp. It rather looks like you’re trying to White Knight alleged hordes of cisgender people who are having the vapors over where someone pees, out of sight in a private stall in a bathroom. Just for your own amusement, as you say. ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/104 "2016-04-07T02:14:00Z")
You guys (and my country also!) need to catch up with Europe already and have unisex bathrooms. The aversion to bodily functions of the opposite sex is a pretty silly one in my opinion, bordering on the superstitious and primitive. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/105 "2016-04-07T03:17:52Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > You guys (and my country also!) need to catch up with Europe already and have unisex bathrooms. The aversion to bodily functions of the opposite sex is a pretty silly one in my opinion, bordering on the superstitious and primitive. We would but the anti-vaxxers don’t let their kids have cootie shots, which makes it too dangerous for the kids to be around the opposite gender. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/106 "2016-04-07T06:04:49Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > You guys (and my country also!) need to catch up with Europe already and have unisex bathrooms. The aversion to bodily functions of the opposite sex is a pretty silly one in my opinion, bordering on the superstitious and primitive. Ah, yes. Because there are hardly any gender specific bathrooms in our glorious unified Europe …:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/107 "2016-04-07T11:37:10Z")
If anyone seriously doubts the violence awaiting trans people trying to pee, [read the comments on our Lt. Governor’s ridiculous press release](https://www.facebook.com/DanForestNC/photos/a.162898833915309.1073741828.162676813937511/548170678721454/?type=3&theater). People are asking to sterilize trans people, saying they need to be catheterized so they don’t ever get to use the restroom, threatening to beat up any trans woman who goes into the bathroom when their little girls are in there, etc. Protection is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/108 "2016-04-07T11:44:02Z")
Oh, is that all? Last comments section I read said all trans people should be thrown in volcanoes so humanity didn’t have to deal with their “perversions.” Granted I’ll admit that as far as ways to die go being thrown into a volcano is pretty fucking metal. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/109 "2016-04-07T13:13:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The thing is, it’s inherent in the fact that you refuse to share what your position actually is. There’s no reason not to say it if your position is that “transwomen are fully women.” That would only help your argument that it’s not about that issue. The only reason not to say it is if you think that people could actually see your positions on both as related. > > This happens a lot. What you say allows people to infer your position, even if you never actually flat out state it. We can’t be sure to what degree you don’t think trans men are really men, but we can tell that you would say it if it were your position. No, that’s not “the thing”. The thing is really something else. You’ve missed the context here. I am not sitting here trembling in fear that someone somewhere will come away thinking they’ve exposed me as a secret heretic who denies one of their sacred principles. I’m not even a member of that religion. What this is about is my reluctance to be drawn into a discussion of that matter in this thread. So in context, what’s relevant is not whether you think you’ve deduced something from my reluctance to declare outright this or that, or even what my position actually is. What’s relevant is whether my position on that question (whatever it is), is logically tied to anything I’ve actually stated in this thread. That’s “the thing”. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But we, generally, do do that (minding our own business) – there’s no genital check, no body scanners, etc… most people don’t take any action to verify the gender of the people around them in a bathroom. > > Even with this laissez faire attitude of most to bathroom access, very few people go to the “wrong” bathroom, because _almost no one is interested in doing that_. Almost everyone wants to go to the bathroom that matches their gender identity. I hold that this will continue, without requiring genital checks (or gender identity checks), if/when transgender people are allowed to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, and thus this concern is trivial and, without some further evidence of changing attitudes/behavior about verification of those around one in a bathroom, not worth being concerned about at this time. It sounds like you’re saying that you don’t think the whole cis discomfort aspect is a big deal. This is remarkably similar to what I myself said, in my first post to this thread. But I don’t know that you can dismiss other people’s concerns as trivial. Everyone has different feelings about things like this. Once you accept the general principle that you can segregate bathrooms based on people’s discomfort, then what counts is how discomforted people are, not how discomforted you think they should be. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > It’s not coming across that way, that’s for certain. I hardly seem to be alone in that camp. It rather looks like you’re trying to White Knight alleged hordes of cisgender people who are having the vapors over where someone pees, out of sight in a private stall in a bathroom. OK, so I take it you’re doubling down on your bogus claim that I’ve said “_that some people being “uncomfortable” outweighs other people being attacked_”. I think I’m beginning to see a pattern here … It’s worth noting that your apparent tendency to make things up has a broader implication. ISTM that much of your advocacy on this issue is based on your own testimony about incidents that you personally know. At this point I suspect that these incidents are being presented in distorted and exaggerated form and should be discounted accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/110 "2016-04-07T13:28:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It sounds like you’re saying that you don’t think the whole cis discomfort aspect is a big deal. This is remarkably similar to what I myself said, in my first post to this thread. But I don’t know that you can dismiss other people’s concerns as trivial. Everyone has different feelings about things like this. Once you accept the general principle that you can segregate bathrooms based on people’s discomfort, then what counts is how discomforted people are, not how discomforted you think they should be. If there’s a general principle about discomfort, it’s this: you can segregate bathrooms based on people’s discomfort _as long as the segregation causes no harm_ (and I don’t consider discomfort to be harm). No harm has been demonstrated, that I know of, from gender-segregated bathrooms – while harm has been demonstrated (conclusively, in my opinion) from preventing transgender people from using the bathrooms that match their gender identity (as well as other forms of segregation, such as by race). On a personal level, I dismiss any discomfort regarding trans people in the bathroom as bigoted – just as I’ll dismiss any discomfort regarding gay people or black people in the bathroom as bigoted. But even on a practical level, whether or not it’s bigoted, I dismiss this discomfort _because honoring it by law or practice would harm transgender people_. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/111 "2016-04-07T13:55:56Z")
I noticed this news report in passing: A 16 lesbian was thrown out of a UK McDonalds either for being part of a group of youngsters causing trouble… Or because staff saw her using the female toilet but refused to believe she was female. > **[Girl, 16, 'humiliated' by McDonald's staff who mistook her for a boy](http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-3527827/Teenage-girl-16-claims-humiliated-McDonald-s-staff-asked-leave-used-women-s-toilets-thought-boy.html)** > > McDonald's says Ny Richardson, shown, was being disruptive at one of its chains in Hull, but Ny claims this isn't true, adding this isn't the first time she's been treated differently over her looks. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/112 "2016-04-07T14:03:37Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Ah, yes. Because there are hardly any gender specific bathrooms in our glorious unified Europe …:rolleyes: Dammit I knew somebody was going to ruin my pie in the sky, the grass is greener elsewhere naive idealism with the facts! I for one am stifled, but not deterred from becoming even more divorced from the harsh realities of life. ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/113 "2016-04-07T14:21:02Z")
Also the governor fellow Left Hand of Dorkness mentioned seems like a _total dunce_, and the people posting on his facebook page in support of him even more so. Is that kind of fear mainstream in America? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/114 "2016-04-07T14:37:58Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > Is that kind of fear mainstream in America? Not mainstream, but pervasive. It’s one aspect of a powerful epidemic of future shock. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/115 "2016-04-07T14:48:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I am not sitting here trembling in fear that someone somewhere will come away thinking they’ve exposed me as a secret heretic who denies one of their sacred principles. I’m not even a member of that religion. You mockingly and scathingly disparage the idea that “transwomen are women, transmen are men” as a “sacred principle” of some “religion.” Do you wonder why someone might consider it relevant to your views on the rights of transgender people? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/116 "2016-04-07T14:53:35Z")
No, I know why. I’ve explained it upthread. But FWIW, you’ve misconstrued what I wrote. I did not “_mockingly and scathingly disparage the idea that “transwomen are women, transmen are men”_”. I mockingly and scathingly disparaged the idea that it’s a big deal if someone departs from that position, or if someone thinks I did (which was the point of BigT’s post). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/117 "2016-04-07T14:59:05Z")
Ah. You weren’t pulling the dog’s tail, you were only _holding_ it. _He_ was pulling. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/118 "2016-04-07T15:00:38Z")
I’m not sure I understand that, but whatever. It’s probably all good. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/119 "2016-04-07T15:01:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, I know why. I’ve explained it upthread. > > But FWIW, you’ve misconstrued what I wrote. I did not “_mockingly and scathingly disparage the idea that “transwomen are women, transmen are men”_”. I mockingly and scathingly disparaged the idea that it’s a big deal if someone departs from that position, or if someone thinks I did (which was the point of BigT’s post). Btw, what the fuck _is_ your position? Besides “No, that’s not it. No, that’s not it either. No, not that either.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/120 "2016-04-07T15:03:50Z")
I could have sworn I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t intend to discuss that issue in this thread. There’s been all sorts of discussion about the propriety of that itself, and everything. Must have all gone over your head. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=7)