# The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244 "2016-04-05T11:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/141 "2016-04-07T17:52:16Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Happily: you are seeing what you choose to see. I have not presented myself as a delicate soul; that is your inference. I have not suggested that I be treated as one, by you or anyone else; that is your inference. I have not been hurt by any jabs; that is your inference. I never suggested I cannot roll with your snark, arrogance, or condescension; that is your inference. True, it’s my inference, but I inferred it from the substance of your post. If you’re not hurt by these types of jabs, then in what way do they hinder communication? It’s not like I said nothing other than that. I assumed you were pointing out that once someone gets their dander up they’re less likely to pick up on the nuances of what you subsequently say (which I agree with). But that assumes they’ve gotten their dander up. If that’s not what you meant, please clarify. > [@](#): > > Do you recognize that you come across as arrogant, pedantic, and condescending much of the time? Do you recognize that those can be a hindrance to communication? Absolutely. But that’s the way the game is played here, as above. > [@](#): > > Sure, I get that. After feeling attacked for a while, it can be easy to _start off_ “in kind,” to come out swinging and hit first. I don’t agree that I do that, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/142 "2016-04-07T17:56:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I said PC sycophants because I was referring to PC sycophants, no more no less. In my assessment, the outpouring of “oh, I’ve learned so much from you, please don’t go” adulation directed at UP was the result of her being an outspoken champion of a very politically correct cause. Not often, but every now and then, I learn something from someone here about an issue that I can honestly say I never cared about or understood to any degree. I’m pretty sure I’ve never had a single exchange with UP in the past but I have read enough of her contributions to admit that I’ve developed respect and appreciation for a subject that does not impact me in any way in my daily life. Bricker is another one of those posters. Though I try not to let him know that, lest it go to his head. So, FYI, we’re not all PC sycophants drunk with adulation for those on our end of the political spectrum. Here’s the thing though… dismissing UP as “a champion of a politically correct cause” casts a shadow on those who in their time have also fought for basic human rights and inclusion. Particularly when those rights are not simply sacred cows, but are currently under attack by emerging (proposed) laws supported by the very society in which they have no choice but to live. So while you may find it amusing and controversial to play coy or act like a self professed lightning rod, it’s really not as clever or bold a position as you want to believe. In fact, it comes across as intellectual cowardice. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/143 "2016-04-07T18:02:38Z")
I get why FP loves this discussion–he’s like a weird vampire who feeds off the reflections of him, and he’s in a funhouse mirror room now, in which everyone is holding up endless mirrors to reflect him. But why are y’all holding up the mirrors? That’s what I don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/144 "2016-04-07T18:23:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I get why FP loves this discussion–he’s like a weird vampire who feeds off the reflections of him, and he’s in a funhouse mirror room now, in which everyone is holding up endless mirrors to reflect him. But why are y’all holding up the mirrors? That’s what I don’t get. I think I must be subconsciously emulating **iiandyiiii**. Just once more post, we’re almost there! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/145 "2016-04-07T18:35:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > True, it’s my inference, but I inferred it from the substance of your post. And you did so incorrectly, in part because you are seeing what you choose to see. > [@](#): > > If you’re not hurt by these types of jabs, then in what way do they hinder communication? It’s not like I said nothing other than that. They are a distraction, they are deliberate incitement, and they make me think less of you–and by extension whatever further points you have to make. > [@](#): > > Absolutely. But that’s the way the game is played here, as above. Being arrogant, condescending, and dismissive is certainly not uncommon 'round these parts, sure. That doesn’t automatically mean that’s the way the game is played. And if you choose to play that way, a lot of people are going to think you’re, well, arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. Just because such behavior occurs does not mean it’s something to emulate. > [@](#): > > I don’t agree that I do that, FWIW. No? From your first post in this thread: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > SJW are looking for a new cause now that they’ve won on gay marriage (and if they win on bathrooms, they’ll just find some other Great Cause to rally around) In one sentence, you disparaged and diminished everyone who cares about trans rights as “SJW’s” who are only out to rally around a “Great Cause.” You don’t think that’s hitting first? It’s certainly dismissive as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/146 "2016-04-07T19:15:15Z")
> [@andros](#): > > They are a distraction, they are deliberate incitement, and they make me think less of you–and by extension whatever further points you have to make. I don’t see it. If, as you claim, you’re not hurt by that type of line, then it wouldn’t be distracting or constitute incitement etc. > [@](#): > > Being arrogant, condescending, and dismissive is certainly not uncommon 'round these parts, sure. That doesn’t automatically mean that’s the way the game is played. And if you choose to play that way, a lot of people are going to think you’re, well, arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. > > Just because such behavior occurs does not mean it’s something to emulate. If they don’t think I’m arrogant, condescending and dismissive, then they’ll think I’m something else. I’ve been around MB and blogs for a long time, and there’s absolutely no way you can be a (forceful) minority viewpoint and not be viewed extremely harshly, if not for one thing than for another. There are no exceptions. [It’s sometimes amusing to see people justifying their negative views of someone with whom they dislike on ideological grounds by saying “I respect so-and-so and he’s [insert ideology]”. Meanwhile, that same guy gets routinely savaged by other people. On this MB, for example, Bricker gets routinely pointed to as “I can respect some conservatives like Bricker, but not so-and-so”. Meanwhile Bricker has probably been the target of as many left-wing Pit pile-ons as anyone.] FWIW, when I started on this board, I thought maybe this MB might possibly be different, and I’d try a kinder & gentler Fotheringay-Phipps. Shortly thereafter I had a couple of Pit threads opened about me, due to (IIRC) the crime of starting a thread in which I argued the position that torture was most likely effective as a purely practical matter. After that I decided the heck with it, not going to bother anymore. Can’t be done. People will think this, they’ll think that, whatever. > [@](#): > > In one sentence, you disparaged and diminished everyone who cares about trans rights as “SJW’s” who are only out to rally around a “Great Cause.” You don’t think that’s hitting first? It’s certainly dismissive as hell. I disagree. It was not a reference to any specific person on this board or in this thread, let alone “everyone who cares about trans rights”. I was just saying that SJW had seized on this as the next Great Cause and this is what caused trans discomfort to trump cis discomfort in the minds of many (which is what I was discussing at that point). That doesn’t mean that everyone who has one position on the issue is a SJW. Just that there are SJW out there and they do influence the public mindset. You see people on the other side making this point about the religious right or other RW groups all the time. It may be right or wrong in a given instance, but it’s an accusation that such-and-such group is influencing the public, not that every member of the public who agrees with them is guilty of rallying the masses and pulling the strings. As I see it, this is just an illustration of how there is a very very low tolerance level for things coming from those on the other side, as compared to those on their own side. Not that that’s surprising or anything, but that’s what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/147 "2016-04-07T19:27:16Z")
Awwwww…the poor bigot is feeling repressed. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/148 "2016-04-07T19:28:37Z")
Hey, I’m not the one complaining. I’m fine the way things are. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/149 "2016-04-07T19:28:52Z")
Man, **F-P** , I know you love to talk about yourself and all, but maybe at some point you’ll get around to responding to my response to you in post #110. But only if you actually want to exchange ideas. No pressure, and much love. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/150 "2016-04-07T19:33:54Z")
Now what does my good friend andros think of the way you wrote that post? I wonder. But fortunately I’m the type of guy that is not offput by getting jabbed, and they don’t hinder communication with me. 🙂 The reason I didn’t respond to your post #110 was that I didn’t see anything in it that I hadn’t already addressed in this thread. If there’s anything else, let me know what that might be. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/151 "2016-04-07T19:38:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Now what does my good friend andros think of the way you wrote that post? I wonder. > > But fortunately I’m the type of guy that is not offput by getting jabbed, and they don’t hinder communication with me. 🙂 The reason I didn’t respond to your post #110 was that I didn’t see anything in it that I hadn’t already addressed in this thread. If there’s anything else, let me know what that might be. That was a jab? I thought we were just being playful. Like flirting, or something. I didn’t recall seeing your response to my distinction based on harm, which is why I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/152 "2016-04-07T19:43:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That was a jab? I thought we were just being playful. Like flirting, or something. Exactly, just like my remark to andros. > [@](#): > > I didn’t recall seeing your response to my distinction based on harm, which is why I asked. In my initial post to this thread (and in subsequent posts) I pointed out that there’s harm (in the form of discomfort) on both sides. You decided in post #110 to focus on the harm to trans people if you do it one way, but I had already pointed out repeatedly that there’s harm to other people if you do it the other way, and I didn’t see the need to point it out yet again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/153 "2016-04-07T19:47:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Exactly, just like my remark to andros. > > In my initial post to this thread (and in subsequent posts) I pointed out that there’s harm (in the form of discomfort) on both sides. You decided in post #110 to focus on the harm to trans people if you do it one way, but I had already pointed out repeatedly that there’s harm to other people if you do it the other way, and I didn’t see the need to point it out yet again. Only if you see such discomfort as different than bigotry like any discomfort during segregation. We may be at an impasse, but hopefully at least you can recognize that my position can be intellectually honesty and consistent, even if you disagree with some of the underlying assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/154 "2016-04-07T19:52:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Only if you see such discomfort as different than bigotry like any discomfort during segregation. I believe we already covered this, see posts #17, #24, #26. > [@](#): > > We may be at an impasse, but hopefully at least you can recognize that my position can be intellectually honesty and consistent, even if you disagree with some of the underlying assumptions. Of course. Did I somehow imply otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/155 "2016-04-07T19:57:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe we already covered this, see posts #17, #24, #26. > > Of course. Did I somehow imply otherwise? Then my hat is off to you, and we can move forward with a spirit of brotherly love and affection. I admit I may have taken what I took to be disdain as perhaps a dismissal and disbelief in my position’s honesty, but it seems I had no reason for that. I am delighted to see that I was wrong. This is what the Dope is for! Best wishes and friendship to you, and I look forward to our next encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/156 "2016-04-07T20:13:49Z")
jesus christ really Also, [QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps] 1. SJW are looking for a new cause now that they’ve won on gay marriage (and if they win on bathrooms, they’ll just find some other Great Cause to rally around) [/QUOTE] We live in interesting times when the above can be delivered with the idea that it’s an insult. Why don’t those stupid dumb idiots realize that they’re lucky enough to exist in a world without problems? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/157 "2016-04-07T20:24:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > We live in interesting times when the above can be delivered with the idea that it’s an insult. Why don’t those stupid dumb idiots realize that they’re lucky enough to exist in a world without problems? I know, right? I figure the way to be a good citizen is to work for a better world. If we reach utopia, that’s a good time to stop–but until then, what’s the virtue in not trying to make things better? Yes, if the bathroom issue gets resolved, I’ll work on something else. Just like I’m doing now: I talk about poverty, about improving education, about climate change, about police brutality, and a crapload of other problems that we face. I’ve not really focused on trans issues much because they haven’t been super-relevant to my life; but now that my state has stuck its ass in the air on this issue, it’s a little more relevant, so I’m focusing a little more on it. The idea that there’s anything wrong with that is bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/158 "2016-04-07T20:44:52Z")
I wish I could say I was a Social Justice Warrior – at most, I’m a Social Justice Debater. I vote and donate and debate online, but I don’t risk anything. The idea that SJW is an insult is totally bizarre to me. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/159 "2016-04-07T21:58:08Z")
They’re trying to tar social justice with the same brush they used to tar liberals and feminists. Might work too because they are the louder voices ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244/160 "2016-04-07T22:35:19Z")
I myself am also in favor of social justice. Not the same thing as a SJW. I also think black lives matter. As distinct from BLM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lance-strongarm-transgender-bathroom-and-poly-marriage-extravaganza-thread/751244.md?page=9)