# "The Last of Us": Ethics **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 29, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229 "2016-07-29T21:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/1 "2016-07-29T21:21:48Z")
_The Last of Us_ is a three year old game, widely considered one of the best console games, ever. I only got around to playing it a couple of weeks ago, when my wife and daughter were out of town. Like many good works of fiction, the game asks fundamental questions about morality and human nature, and leaves open multiple interpretations. One example is the ending. The game takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, where a human-adapted strain of [Cordyceps](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKjBIBBAL8)has killed most of the world’s population, and turned many of the rest of us into monstrous, mindless killers. In the beginning, Joel is a working-class, single father. He attempts to escape Austin, Texas, which has been quarantined, only to watch his young daughter die after getting shot by a soldier, who is apparently under orders to prevent anyone from leaving. The story then jumps ahead 20 years. Joel lives in Boston, along with his partner Tess, in a miniaturized police state, where soldiers act as judge, jury, and executioners. Tess and Joel are smugglers, as well as hardened - and accomplished - killers. Meanwhile, a group calling itself the “Fireflies” has taken up arms against this remnant of the US government. It claims, among other things, to still be looking for a cure. The military, however, gains the upper hand, and begins wiping out the rebels. Joel, unwittingly, becomes the guardian of a girl named Ellie, who is infected, but immune from the effects of the disease. After his partner, Tess, gets killed by soldiers, Joel and Ellie begin a brutal, cross-country trek to locate the Fireflies HQ, under the belief that Ellie might be the key to finding a cure. Along the way, the relationship between Ellie and Joel inevitably grows into a surrogate father-daughter relationship. Unfortunately, when they finally find the Fireflies, they take Joel prisoner and begin prepping Ellie for surgery - a surgery that involves removing Ellie’s brain from her body, and therefore killing her. Joel escapes, and begins killing Fireflies - each and every one who stands between him and Ellie - up to and including the doctor who was set to perform the surgery. The first question is: Is it right to kill any number of people - including people who might theoretically be cured - to save someone you love? The second question also has to do with the ending. Joel lies to Ellie, and tells her the Fireflies didn’t need her after all, and that they have in fact “given up” looking for a cure. Ellie eventually asks him to swear that everything he said about the Fireflies was true. He does. Was it right for Joel to lie to Ellie? Bonus question: Does Ellie believe him? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/2 "2016-07-29T21:39:25Z")
deleted by user. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/3 "2016-07-29T21:56:35Z")
Why were they going to remove Ellie’s brain? that seems like a stupid thing to do to the only immune person. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/4 "2016-07-30T00:04:46Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Why were they going to remove Ellie’s brain? that seems like a stupid thing to do to the only immune person. Whatever it was that they needed to analyze needed to be extracted from her brain tissue. The story doesn’t go into it further than that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/5 "2016-07-30T05:04:45Z")
Not sure what the right answer is, but note that Joel and the Fireflies were each doing the same thing – killing other people who stood in the way of protecting others that they cared about. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/6 "2016-07-30T06:52:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > …Joel and the Fireflies were each doing the same thing – killing other people who stood in the way of protecting others that they cared about. No, they weren’t. The Fireflies were trying to steal something vitally important to Ellie that was rightfully hers - her life. Even if their plan was guaranteed to work, which it wasn’t, there is an important moral distinction between killing an innocent person because you “need” to steal their organs and killing a bunch of organ thieves to save an innocent life. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/7 "2016-07-30T12:17:30Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The first question is: Is it right to kill any number of people - including people who might theoretically be cured - to save someone you love? It’s not right - but it’s what you do. That’s what love _means_. Holding that person or persons above everything, and everyone, else. It’s not something you can help, either. > [@](#): > > The second question also has to do with the ending. Joel lies to Ellie, and tells her the Fireflies didn’t need her after all, and that they have in fact “given up” looking for a cure. Ellie eventually asks him to swear that everything he said about the Fireflies was true. He does. Was it right for Joel to lie to Ellie? Nope. I think, in this case, that was Joel being selfish and robbing Ellie of her agency - he doesn’t tell her because Ellie’s good enough a person that she might just have sacrificed herself for the rest of the world. But that would have meant for Joel to lose his daughter _again_, and he just can’t do it. It’s wrong, but understandable. > [@](#): > > Bonus question: Does Ellie believe him? I don’t think she did, no. Besides, you don’t ask somebody to swear if you believe them, and the swearing doesn’t change a thing does it ? Joel doesn’t really have a poker face, anyway :). But she’s OK with pretending she does, so they can both live with Joel’s choice. Besides, what else could she do ? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/8 "2016-07-30T15:22:03Z")
Moving this to the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/9 "2016-07-30T15:26:49Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The first question is: Is it right to kill any number of people - including people who might theoretically be cured - to save someone you love? No. it’s _understandable_, but it’s not right. > [@](#): > > Was it right for Joel to lie to Ellie? Not really, no. But if it was just done to make her feel better about something already done, then it’s not a big lie, it’s more a “your doggy is on a farm upstate chasing rabbits”-kind of lie. > [@](#): > > Bonus question: Does Ellie believe him? I haven’t finished the game (just started it) so can’t say, but does she have reason not to believe him e.g. are Fireflies still jumping out of the corridors going “Stop, we need your… _blam_ Aaargh!” as they leave? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/10 "2016-07-30T16:11:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I haven’t finished the game (just started it) so can’t say, but does she have reason not to believe him e.g. are Fireflies still jumping out of the corridors going “Stop, we need your… _blam_ Aaargh!” as they leave? Yes and no. The fireflies are all dead at that point. Ellie’s unconscious through most of it - basically she almost-drowns right as they’re reaching the compound, then is put under for the brain removal operation, then wakes up somewhere else wearing a hospital gown with Joel saying to her that there were actually dozens of immune people in the camp and the Fireflies didn’t need her after all. But he’s _very bad_ at not emoting, and it’s quite an obvious lie anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/11 "2016-07-30T18:59:07Z")
it wasn’t entirely a lie, though (if you picked up the various diaries & whatnot) - the Fireflies had vivisected a dozen or more other “immune” people over the years, and learned nothing whatsoever. Ellie might have been willing to sacrifice her life for the greater good…but the odds of them accomplishing _anything_ though her death was virtually nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/12 "2016-07-30T19:18:35Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > it wasn’t entirely a lie, though (if you picked up the various diaries & whatnot) - \*\*the Fireflies had vivisected a dozen or more other “immune” people over the years, and learned nothing whatsoever. \*\* I didn’t know this. This makes Joel’s decision slightly more justifiable. And I don’t think Ellie believes Joel’s lie. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/13 "2016-07-30T19:27:24Z")
My impression is that Joel isn’t killing innocent people to keep himself and Ellie alive. He’s defending them against mutant zombies, homicidal bandits and fascist soldiers. And when did it become ok to perform experiments on humans without their consent? ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/14 "2016-07-30T19:32:19Z")
oh, they _had_ her consent - if you believe that a 13 year old has sufficient judgement to allow someone to kill her. Which most people would find quite iffy. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/15 "2016-07-30T20:49:56Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > oh, they _had_ her consent - if you believe that a 13 year old has sufficient judgement to allow someone to kill her. Which most people would find quite iffy. Did they? After the fact she implies she would have been willing, but I don’t think it’s ever revealed that Ellie knew what would happen once she made it to the Fireflies. She didn’t consent at the time because she was unconscious the entire time she was at the Firefly compound. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/16 "2016-07-30T20:58:33Z")
Tthe recordings say that Ellie is not the same as the past people they have experimented on. I don’t think there’s any real reason to think the surgery is hopeless. I think Joel was wrong to save her, and wrong to lie to her. I’m less sure on whether Ellie believed him, probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/17 "2016-07-31T01:23:29Z")
I think Joel was right to save her. I have a daughter, and I’d rather let the whole world burn than let someone murder her… No matter how much good it would do. And he was right to lie to her. I mean, he just killed all the Fireflies, so there is no possible good that could be done by telling her the truth. The idea of purely utilitarian morality is unacceptable and it inevitably results in rapacious violation of the individual. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/18 "2016-07-31T03:22:41Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > it wasn’t entirely a lie, though (if you picked up the various diaries & whatnot) - the Fireflies had vivisected a dozen or more other “immune” people over the years, and learned nothing whatsoever. Yeah, this was part of my problem with the Fireflies. To me the most likely solution is that the people immune to the virus pass that on to their descendants - a slow but sure answer to the problem. With the Fireflies dissecting every immune person they can get their hands on, only to come up empty, they’re throwing away the _actual_ cure to work on a possible one. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/19 "2016-07-31T03:37:57Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Yeah, this was part of my problem with the Fireflies. To me the most likely solution is that the people immune to the virus pass that on to their descendants - a slow but sure answer to the problem. With the Fireflies dissecting every immune person they can get their hands on, only to come up empty, they’re throwing away the _actual_ cure to work on a possible one. You’re remembering incorrectly. Ellie was the only immune person they ever worked on. > **[Surgeon's recorder](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Surgeon%27s_recorder)** > > Surgeon's recorder is an artifact that can be found in "The Firefly Lab". The contents of this particular recorder, spoken by Jerry Anderson, shed some light on Joel's story to Ellie in the game's epilogue. It states that Ellie's immunity is an... ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229/20 "2016-07-31T03:44:18Z")
Were the Allies wrong to stop the Nazi’s? Imagine how much more we could have learned from their human experimentation! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-of-us-ethics/761229.md?page=2)