# "The Last Samurai" could have been good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 21, 2004, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179 "2004-07-21T14:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/21 "2004-07-22T05:44:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is that a direct quote from Cruise? I wonder how that jibes with his excellent performance in _Magnolia_, where his character was pretty severely flawed, if not downright despicable. Not a direct quote from anyone, just a trend I get tired of on occasion. The plot with Algren actually seemed cliched to me. The worn out old soldier (who typically was one of the best) finding new inspiration and acceptance in another culture or with a woman (or both) is kind of old hat by now. Just off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 Kevin Costner movies like that, and one Kurt Russell movie. This was also brought on by the news that Mel Gibson wants to do a final Mad Max movie where he (Max) sacrifices himself for civilization or some such crap. Oh and the lifetime achievement academy award that was given to Michael Douglas this year was also pitiful considering the work he’s done. He has gone on record as never wanting to play an unheroic man. And you can add the Governator "won’t play a bad guy"Arnie to the “overblown egos on parade lately” list and you can see my frustration with Hollywood right now. Sorry, I’m just in a bit of a rant here, but I still stand by my original reaction to the movie, which was “Why is he in it? It’s a shame his ego couldn’t allow him to participate in it without being the star. That would have been worthy of respect.” ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/22 "2004-07-22T11:57:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I gotta say, whatever my other reservations about the film, the scene where he’s ambushed in Kyoto(?) was great. I loved the way they showed him acting by instinct, then flashed back to the same fight in slow motion as he realized intellectually what he’d just done by pure reflex. Very, very cool way of showing what I suspect is a pretty accurate example of how people think and react in a real fight. ehhhh. . .that was actually the kind of thing that irritated me about this. you know what it seemed like to me – a scene stuck in so they could show him applying the “no mind”. He mouths it to himself, or says it quietly right before the fighting starts. I felt like saying, “ooooh look, he’s using the the Zen”. When they first taught him that it was like ‘Q’ giving James Bond exploding shoelaces. . .when is it going to get him out of a jam? Anyway – some interesting reading from some of you. I was never worried about historical sense with this movie. I never do unless it’s the point of the movie to be historically accurate. I just had an overall problem with the tone and the style. Cruise’s character could have been so much more interesting, weightier, as could have the rest of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/23 "2004-07-22T13:19:52Z")
It would seem that in Cruise’s new flick, “Collateral,” he doesn’t play a good guy. I believe he’s a contract killer. As for Samurai, I liked the movie but hated the ending. I’m not a Cruise fan, but I thought he was pretty good in it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/24 "2004-07-22T14:40:16Z")
The only substantive difference between “The Last Samurai” and “Dances With Wolves” is that the former has ninjas in it while the latter has Indians. I realize that to many people, the fact that there are some ninjas in “The Last Samurai” is enough justification to see and to like the movie, but come on… there are lots of movies with ninjas. “Dances with Wolves” is a better movie in every conceivable way. Same story, same plot, same developments, same character basically… and even though movie ninjas are per se cooler than movie Indians, that fact alone is not enough to make one movie better than another. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/25 "2004-07-22T14:55:36Z")
What bothered me more than the historical errors and simplification that have already been addressed or the fact that Cruise Algren survived (again and again… how? Doesn’t speak well for the Gatling gun does it?) is the fact that Algren is accepted back into the U.S. military as if nothing happened. Aw’ight— that he spent several months with the enemy while a captive, no problem, but that he helped an enemy of his employer escape, then took up arms with the man AGAINST HIS OWN SUPERIOR OFFICER and the troops of the emperor and, in the process, PERSONALLY AND IN FRONT OF WITNESSES KILLS HIS SUPERIOR OFFICER, and yet after being shot more often than Sonny Corleone not only survives (albeit with a limp when he remembers) but appears before the emperor in U.S. military regalia was absolutely laughable. It would be almost like seeing an American Revolution movie in which Washington tells Benedict Arnold “Never mind betraying your own army… you did a fine job. Here’s a medal, you wild kid ya!” or a production of Julius Caesar in which Octavius hugs Brutus and says “Never liked Uncle Julie anyway… welcome back to Rome.” ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/26 "2004-07-22T15:42:43Z")
You know, that really bothered me too. I can understand them letting him live and all, but Why in the world would he put on the US uniform again? Why not go in to see the Emperor in Japonese garb? I don’t have a problem with him living through the hail of bullets. I watched that scene a few times and as far as I can see he was hit in the leg and in the shoulder, both of which are survivable injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/27 "2004-07-22T18:05:17Z")
I’ve fallen asleep to it twice. I did get farther along the second time. It seemed good to me. I _liked_ it. But for some reason I just can’t make it through. Oh well, I’ve been under a lot of stress lately. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/28 "2004-07-22T21:36:59Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > What bothered me more than the historical errors and simplification that have already been addressed or the fact that Cruise Algren survived (again and again… how? Doesn’t speak well for the Gatling gun does it?) is the fact that Algren is accepted back into the U.S. military as if nothing happened. > > Aw’ight— that he spent several months with the enemy while a captive, no problem, but that he helped an enemy of his employer escape, then took up arms with the man AGAINST HIS OWN SUPERIOR OFFICER and the troops of the emperor and, in the process, PERSONALLY AND IN FRONT OF WITNESSES KILLS HIS SUPERIOR OFFICER, and yet after being shot more often than Sonny Corleone not only survives (albeit with a limp when he remembers) but appears before the emperor in U.S. military regalia was absolutely laughable. It would be almost like seeing an American Revolution movie in which Washington tells Benedict Arnold “Never mind betraying your own army… you did a fine job. Here’s a medal, you wild kid ya!” or a production of Julius Caesar in which Octavius hugs Brutus and says “Never liked Uncle Julie anyway… welcome back to Rome.” Er, he doesn’t rejoin the US military. He shows up in the throne room wearing the same uniform he was captured in, gives the sword to the emperor, then goes back to the village to live the rest of his life in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/29 "2004-07-22T21:43:15Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I thought you’d be complaining about the last scene in which Cruise returns back to the village and sees the wife of the guy he killed. How Hollywood cliche’ can you get? “Sorry I killed your husband but hey, I’m hot, your hot, I get along with your kid, lets live happily ever after!” You had me at konichua… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/30 "2004-07-23T04:30:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Er, he doesn’t rejoin the US military. He shows up in the throne room wearing the same uniform he was captured in, gives the sword to the emperor, then goes back to the village to live the rest of his life in Japan. Which he just happened to have on under his samurai armor? Or did the Japanese troops who shot him as he led a bloody attack on them politely let him return to the Japanese village (unbeknownst to his squeeze there, evidently) to collect his uniform and sword and then return to the palace? (Warriors are generally pretty forgiving of people who’ve turned coats and fragged a superior officer, after all.) Nope, sorry, not buying it- he was taken back into the U.S. military. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/31 "2004-07-23T05:03:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Which he just happened to have on under his samurai armor? Or did the Japanese troops who shot him as he led a bloody attack on them politely let him return to the Japanese village (unbeknownst to his squeeze there, evidently) to collect his uniform and sword and then return to the palace? (Warriors are generally pretty forgiving of people who’ve turned coats and fragged a superior officer, after all.) Nope, sorry, not buying it- he was taken back into the U.S. military. Well… yes, actually, I suspect it was something more or less like that. Watanabe’s character, by dying heroically (also, stupidly, but warrior cultures don’t often see a distinction between the two) had legitimized his position in a way he could never have done while alive. That’s the entire point of the final scene between Algren and the Emperor. Watanabe had suddenly become a cultural hero. Algren, as his friend and confidant, was accorded great respect for his close relationship with the dead samurai. I suspect he spent the months between the battle and the meeting with the Emperor covalescing in a royal palace somewhere while imperial servants cleaned and pressed his uniform, fetched from the village by its conquerors. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/32 "2004-07-23T11:19:56Z")
> [@AndyPolley](#): > > It would seem that in Cruise’s new flick, “Collateral,” he doesn’t play a good guy. I believe he’s a contract killer. Contract killers aren’t necessarily reviled in movies, though. The Travolta and Jackson characters from Pulp Fiction were compelling and entertaining. And Grosse Point Blank was a whole masculine fantasy of the romantasized cold-blooded killer. Also, it doesn’t erase all the “young talented hot shot who overcomes whatever to succeed and get the girl” movies he has done. That’s the typical formula that he has built his whole career on. I’m not saying there haven’t been exceptions to this, but for the most part he’s just been playing variations on the theme. The Last Samurai is just a more mature variation of it, and one that has been done before. I’m just so bored with him. Feh. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/33 "2004-07-23T13:03:00Z")
It would have been more interesting if filmed like THE ILLIAD in which the sympathies of the creators are not really with either side or are with both. A peasant character whose life was one of total stagnation under the samurai system but who rises to officer in the industrialized army against the Watanabe character would have been interesting. A question for somebody who knows Japanese history: the Japanese were introduced to firearms at least as early as the 16th century by the Portugese and were even manufacturing them and incorporating them into warfare by the time of Will Adams (the basis for Blackthorne in _Shogun_). Had they completely abandoned them in the “closed centuries” or were they still used but out of date? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/34 "2004-07-23T13:05:46Z")
> [@AveDementia](#): > > I’m just so bored with him. Feh. Even his Lestat was basically just an “angry young troubled hot-shot character”, this time with fangs. I don’t know if it’s lack of talent or lack of guts on his part. (I would say that his looks aren’t going to hold out forever so he needs to develop the acting, but his looks seem to be holding their own quite nicely.) ---
**Author:** ![Illinois\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Illinois\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illinois_Boy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/35 "2004-07-23T19:31:37Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Tom Cruise is 5’7", as am I. I had no idea that we were midgets. If Aesiron is still around, I apologize profusely. Neither you nor Mr. Cruise are midgets (not that there’s anything wrong with that)! What I really meant to say was it bothered me throughout the movie that Tom Cruise always seemed to be the shortest person in the scene. Even among Japanese, who tend to be shorter than Westerners (particularly in that time period - i believe the average height of the Japanese is becoming closer to the West with each generation). Again, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179/36 "2004-07-24T05:47:33Z")
I wasn’t offended, just slightly annoyed at Tom Cruise’s height being an issue _again_. Now that you’ve explained yourself, I actually agree with you and it would have annoyed me as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-last-samurai-could-have-been-good/256179.md?page=1)