# The Latest Ben Stein Pit Thread- John McCain related (Toulouse Lautrec) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169 "2008-09-18T17:17:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/1 "2008-09-18T17:17:54Z")
Did anybody watch Ben Stein on LARRY KING last night? The subject was the economy. He was on opposite Robert Reich (Sec of Labor under Clinton and now an Obama advisor). Stein of course put all his credibility chips on _Expelled_ and then rolled snake-eyes, but even so he’s an intelligent man, and particularly well informed on political and financial matters. He and Reich agreed on far more than they didn’t: that the financial catastrophes were avoidable, that they are the fault of corrupt and or absent regulation, that the notion of giving tax breaks to the rich and to megacorporations is somewhere between absurd and evil, that Wall Street has tentacles far into both parties, and even that John McCain is not likely to be able to fix it or even to handle it at all responsibly. Stein actually said he really wanted Warren Buffett to be given a position of power in repairing the economy but that Buffett is “unfortunately” supporting and working with Obama. He never flat out said that Obama has the better plan, but he most certainly never trashed it as much as he did what he perceives as McCain’s likely torpor on the subject. So he’s supporting, of course, McCain. The only reason he cited was “Right to Life” and the fact he’s always been Republican, but this drives me nuts: you _admit_ that he’s not likely to be able to fix the biggest catastrophe in many years and that the man Stein himself cited supports Obama, but that’s okay- he’s anti abortion. His odds of illegalizing abortion while president are, to say the least, very slim; his odds of having to address this financial crisis are absolute 1. Number of people affected by abortions in the next 8 years: a small minority of the USA. Number of people affected by the government bailouts: 100%. Is a fetus a life? Well, that’s a matter of incredible debate sociologically, theologically, physiologically, etc… Are the people whose pension plans and 401Ks and savings are in danger of being wiped out alive? Absolutely, no debate whatever. I could understand it better if he said it was McCain’s war policy that he supported, but a social issue that he’s not likely to make any dents in anyway? You frigging benighted myopic Fundie nutcase. It’s just incredible to me. Incredible. No words. No words. How can you [SIZE]Toulouse Lautrec was short and lame.[/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/2 "2008-09-18T17:32:01Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [SIZE]Toulouse Lautrec was short and lame.[/SIZE] Plus, according to the prostitutes who dubbed him “Teapot,” he had a giant dick. Seems rather appropriate to mention that phrase when discussing Ben Stein. But, honestly, side issues are what the GOP’s got. Not that it wouldn’t be different if the roles were reversed, as when Jimmy Carter wiped out against Reagan. If the economy tanks when your party is in charge, you’ve got big problems. All you can do is: 1. Pretend the economy isn’t so bad after all (See: Phil Gramm’s “It’s a mental recession” comment) 2. Relentlessly attack your opponent on anything and everything (See: Every McCain ad to date) 3. Hype the side issues to high heavens. The GOP is going to go crazy over #3 because #1 isn’t going to work now–the Dow dropping nearly 1,000 points in a week tends to put paid to claims of economic strength–and all #2 did is return the polls to about where they were pre-convention. Truthfully, I don’t think #3 is going to work, either. It might catch the giant dick crowd like Ben Stein, but few outside the True Belief crowd is going to trade “vote for the guy who might possibly maybe one day if the moon and stars are aligned and the Supreme Court is off No-Doze and the Pope is wearing that snappy red hat get abortions made illegal in the deep red states only” for food. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/3 "2008-09-18T17:35:21Z")
I saw it. Stein’s support of McCain was strained and tepid, to say the least. He also did say that of the two he thought McCain might be more likely to have the “guts” to stand up to Wall Street, but he didn’t say it with much conviction. I think Stein’s social conservative, loyal partisan heart is at war with his educated, economically pragmatic, analytical brain. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/4 "2008-09-18T17:44:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I could understand it better if he said it was McCain’s war policy that he supported, but a social issue that he’s not likely to make any dents in anyway? You frigging benighted myopic Fundie nutcase. sigh. I am not a mind reader, and I didnt watch the show you mentioned. However, in my efforts to try to see “both sides” here: In your own OP, you said Stein made statement to the effect that “Wall Street had it’s tentacles into both parties.” We can interpret this to mean he doesn’t think either party is going to be strongly motivated to make sweeping changes to how buisness is done. (And I suspect he’s mostly right there, but I expect to see some return to regulations that have been allowed to lapse.) Therefore, the specific economic crisis is not a election issue for him. It’s possible he may feel that the abortion issue won’t “get worse” under McCain’s watch, while there is a sliver of a chance that Obama might create some creep into the abortion issue (say, Federally funded abortion included in Universal Health Care). Therefore, abortion remains an election issue for him. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/5 "2008-09-18T17:44:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think Stein’s social conservative, loyal partisan heart is at war with his educated, economically pragmatic, analytical brain. Maybe we’ll get lucky and it’ll be a cage match to the death. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/6 "2008-09-18T17:48:18Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Maybe we’ll get lucky and it’ll be a cage match to the death. While possibly good for a few yuks, do you really want to risk him ending up as a brain dead, loyal partisan at heart? (The funny reply is: “How could we tell the difference between that and now?”, right?) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/7 "2008-09-18T17:53:20Z")
I found the [transcript](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/17/lkl.01.html), does anyone know if there’s a video? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/8 "2008-09-18T17:54:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …and the fact he’s always been Republican… Minor nitpick. He was a lefty in his youth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/9 "2008-09-18T17:59:14Z")
I understand where Stein is coming from, but he sure does annoy me at times. First of all, he seems to have a survivor guilt from being a Jew with family that got gassed in the Holocaust. These seem to be distant relatives, though, near as I can tell, and he grew up pretty comfortably in the suburbs of Washington, DC. He does seem to have been genuinely affected by this though (as many other American Jews were) but in his case it comes through in his writing as way over the top patriotism and a love for servicemen and women. Fine as far as that goes, but I don’t need to see this repeated once a month. I also don’t need to see his hypochondria or read about him indulging his son, refusing to discipline the boy, and then putting the monster in military school when he predictably turns uncontrollable. I also don’t think that an appreciation for human life needs to lead one to creationism - but Stein has ended up there. His arguments from that position aren’t convincing, and he should have kept to subjects he knew something about. On the economy, though, he does know quite a bit - he probably absorbed most of it from his father. Now, even there his commentary can’t be believed across the board - but I’ll give it a listen. Besides, he helped create “Fernwood 2 Night”. I’ll forgive him much just for this. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/10 "2008-09-18T18:07:02Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Besides, he helped create “Fernwood 2 Night”. I’ll forgive him much just for this. No shit? [Johnny Carson]I did not know that.[/JC] I used to love that show. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/11 "2008-09-18T18:51:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think Stein’s social conservative, loyal partisan heart is at war with his educated, economically pragmatic, analytical brain. Not any more; he couldn’t have made his _No Intelligence Allowed_ movie but for the fact that the former has already curb-stomped the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/12 "2008-09-18T18:58:47Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > No shit? [Johnny Carson]I did not know that.[/JC] I used to love that show. So did I. I even liked his game show. That’s the problem… “There’s good in him, I can sense it.” Even if he is more machine than human now. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/13 "2008-09-18T19:36:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Minor nitpick. He was a lefty in his youth. If that’s so, it must’ve been when he was in high school because he was working in the Nixon Administration at an early age. In any case, there seems to be a lot of conflict and contradiction going on in the mind of Ben Stein. Back in the 70s, he wrote the book “The View from Sunset Boulevard” which is pretty much one of the ur-texts for the right-wing contention that Hollywood and the media is controlled by irreligious, morally relativistic liberals who are trying to brainwash people (especially the youth) into adopting their anti-American, atheistic, and decadent ways. This despite the fact that he’s had a fairly active career in show business hosting game shows, creating things like “Fernwood 2 Night,” and popping up in memorable hey-it’s-that-guy cameos in movies. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/14 "2008-09-18T19:50:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Is a fetus a life? Well, that’s a matter of incredible debate sociologically, theologically, physiologically, etc.. [/QUOTE] The neocons, the **Brickers** of the world, don’t believe there’s any room at all for debate, much less personal belief. They believe they have the right to criminalize citizens who act in accordance with their own morality. See how simple? No debate, no ambiguity, no room at all for personal morality. No call fuss, no need to get your doctor, your family, your spiritual advisor involved. Big Brother has done all the thinking for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/15 "2008-09-18T19:58:32Z")
You know, I think intelligent folks made a big mistake by not announcing a boycott of anything associated with Stein when he came out with Expelled. Certainly the religious nutters have no problems boycotting things when they see a “threat” to the “moral fiber of America.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/16 "2008-09-18T20:10:51Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I understand where Stein is coming from, but he sure does annoy me at times. > > First of all, he seems to have a survivor guilt from being a Jew with family that got gassed in the Holocaust. These seem to be distant relatives, though, near as I can tell, and he grew up pretty comfortably in the suburbs of Washington, DC. > > He does seem to have been genuinely affected by this though (as many other American Jews were) but in his case it comes through in his writing as way over the top patriotism and a love for servicemen and women. Fine as far as that goes, but I don’t need to see this repeated once a month. > > I also don’t need to see his hypochondria or read about him indulging his son, refusing to discipline the boy, and then putting the monster in military school when he predictably turns uncontrollable. > > I also don’t think that an appreciation for human life needs to lead one to creationism - but Stein has ended up there. His arguments from that position aren’t convincing, and he should have kept to subjects he knew something about. > > On the economy, though, he does know quite a bit - he probably absorbed most of it from his father. Now, even there his commentary can’t be believed across the board - but I’ll give it a listen. > > Besides, he helped create “Fernwood 2 Night”. I’ll forgive him much just for this. He said that he was upset that people who survived the holocaust were financially wiped out the last couple days. He was responding on a personal level. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/17 "2008-09-18T20:36:07Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > You know, I think intelligent folks made a big mistake by not announcing a boycott of anything associated with Stein when he came out with Expelled. Certainly the religious nutters have no problems boycotting things when they see a “threat” to the “moral fiber of America.” Eh, boycotting stupid is so much more work than public ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/18 "2008-09-18T20:48:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > He said that he was upset that people who survived the holocaust were financially wiped out the last couple days. He was responding on a personal level. I’ve been reading him for years - he has a monthly column in the American Spectator. Trust me - this is a recurring theme in his work. [Here he is in full tear in 2004:](http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6542) > [@](#): > > I think I have discovered heaven. It is America outside of New York, Beverly Hills, and Santa Monica. Just several days ago, I was in Scottsdale, Arizona, again, as I often am. I had dinner at PF Chang’s with my dear pals Barron and Steve, indispensable friends, and then we shopped at the great Barnes & Noble and then had tea at Starbucks. The night was warm and dry and breezy. The faces were friendly. The stars were out. It was paradise. The next day I spoke at the Troon Four Seasons in Scottsdale to a group of kindly insurance people. Two nights later I was in Grand Rapids, Michigan, home of my old boss, Gerald R. Ford. I gave a speech to execs and customers of a fine bank called Standard-Federal. Then we had supper at a fabulously good cafe called the 1913 Room, and then we had a long political discussion. No one raised his voice. No one tried to make the other look stupid. No one bragged and everyone laughed a lot. Life between the coasts is blissful. I have discovered heaven and it is heartland America. Walla Walla, Scottsdale, Grand Rapids, even Las Vegas, which is basically Midwestern and kind. What did I ever do to deserve to be in America? Thank you, dear Lord. > > Everywhere I go I preach the good gospel of gratitude, humility, reliance on God, patriotism, and devotion to one’s family. And it all goes down extremely well. > > …I returned to my magnificent small hotel suite at the Marcus Whitman, a renovated hotel from before World War I, ate the food I had bought at Wal-Mart the night before, toasted some toast in my Wal-Mart $6.87 toaster, and girded my loins to speak. I did that mostly by praying, which is always the best preparation for anything. I will say what I have to say and if they boo and hiss, it will not kill me. > > …It all went well and I felt fabulous when it ended, but sad. It was a bit like a high school graduation. A lot of excitement, but who knows what happens when it is over. I wandered around the Mandalay Bay, saw many drunken people, and then went to sleep. What a lucky life I lead. > > As I sat in my chair checking my e-mails, I had the sudden realization that I don’t have a real problem in the world except for mortality, and as I have often said, faith takes care of that. What a blessed guy I am. I don’t deserve it. But then neither do any of the lucky Americans I know. > > Friday > Well, here are some people who are not quite as lucky. I am at a gathering honoring Holocaust Survivors and a museum they have made in Orlando, Florida. The Holocaust Survivors are a spectacularly sprightly and lively group, especially the leader of the group, Tess Wisse. She is still beautiful and still full of fight. She gave a brilliant speech, and I followed it with a few jokes and a speech about devotion to one’s parents. > > When I finished, I got a huge ovation. A smallish older Jewish man named Eddie came up to me and hugged me. His tears soaked my shirt onto my chest. “I am a survivor,” he said. “My father did not survive. They took him away the night before Yom Kippur. He said, ‘I will not survive, but you must survive to bring up your son the way I brought up mine.’ No one has ever brought up the feelings in me he did until I heard you tonight. Thank you for making me think of my father in this way and on this night.'” And then he hugged me for so long I started to cry, too. > > This is a great way to live. And when I walked out of the auditorium, there was no SS, no Hamas (the Middle East wing of the SS), no NKVD, just glorious, free America. God bless, God bless. I like Ben Stein, but when he writes stuff like this, I want to chuck it out the window - and since I do most of my reading these days on expensive electronic implements, that’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/19 "2008-09-18T22:06:22Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > If that’s so, it must’ve been when he was in high school because he was working in the Nixon Administration at an early age… > **[Ben Stein](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0798/stein1.html)** > [@](#): > > …Stein spent much of 1971 protesting the Vietnam War, raising funds for the Black Panthers and wearing his hair in a large Afro that brings tears to Don King’s eyes. Two years later, he was on Nixon’s staff preparing speeches, the only war protester of record to make that particular transition… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169/20 "2008-09-18T22:35:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [Ben Stein](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0798/stein1.html) > > Offered without comment. My comment- a children’s book- **A Story of a Dick and a Mole**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-ben-stein-pit-thread-john-mccain-related-toulouse-lautrec/464169.md?page=2)