# The latest CIA coup, or Let's Learn about Venezuela **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945 "2003-07-16T18:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/1 "2003-07-16T18:33:21Z")
Sorry about the cutesie title. Trying to get your attention and all. A few of you might have read [a previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=196437) in which I contended that the corporate media do not keep us well informed on foreign relations issues. I have also posted a thread questioning [whether the media cowers from authority](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=193596), or takes its cues from authority figures and officials. Obviously, I’m interested in, and dubious about, the process by which Americans are fed the news from our established media – the mainstream media, if you will. I don’t buy the argument that Americans simply don’t care about other cultures. I feel that they don’t know enough about what’s going on in other cultures because they are being misled as to what’s going on. I’m going to use Venezuela as an example. I will argue that the CIA inspired the attempted coup in April against the rightfully elected nationalist leader, Hugo Chavez, as it has with so many Third World countries that have decided to stray from the U.S. vision of globalization. Or, I think I can at least show that there’s enough evidence that the media should be investigating this distinct possibility. First, some background on Chavez’s Bolivarian party from [this article](http://www.anncol.com/april/1804_MASS_UPRISING_VENEZUELA%20.htm): > [@](#): > > CHAVEZ AND THE “BOLIVARIAN REVOLUTION” > > Venezuela is a mineral-rich South American country bordering the Caribbean Sea. It is the third-largest exporter of oil to the United States–down from the largest when Chavez was elected in 1998. > > But the tremendous wealth that the oil industry generates has never impacted the lives of Venezuela’s working class. More than 80 percent live in poverty. One percent of the population owns 60 percent of the arable land. > > The tremendous social inequities have caused tremendous explosions of popular outrage. In 1989, the ruling class unleashed a military assault on tens of thousands of people demanding lower food prices; more than 3,000 were massacred. > > In 1992, junior military officers led by Lt. Col. Hugo Chavez staged a coup attempt in solidarity with huge demonstrations against International Monetary Fund-dictated austerity measures. > > After spending two years in prison, Chavez toured the country, advocating what he described as a “Bolivarian Revolution” against the pro-U.S. Venezuelan oligarchy. Named for the great South American independence leader Simon Bolivar, Bolivarianism has come to mean using Venezuela’s wealth for the benefit of the people of Latin America, and Latin American unity against U.S. domination. > > His 1998 election was the result of an alliance between his Fifth Republic Movement, based on progressive junior military officers and rank-and-file soldiers, and the parties of the working class and left. > > His new government began to dismantle the political power base of the rich oligarchy. The two main political parties of the ruling class–the Democratic Alliance and the Social Christian COPEI party–essentially collapsed. A new constitution and National Assembly enshrined many of the key progressive political features of the new Bolivarian Republic. > > In the arena of foreign relations, the Chavez government steered clear of the traditional servile position to U.S. imperialism. Chavez traveled to visit Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. He encouraged an independent OPEC. He brokered a deal providing Cuba with oil at terms favorable to Havana. He refused to participate in the Pentagon’s military campaign against Colombia’s Marxist insurgencies. > > Beginning in June, the Venezuelan government began to turn its attention from the political arena to the economy. In November, Chavez signed a package of 49 laws aimed at addressing the social disparities in the country. At the heart of these laws were a land reform law and legislation aimed at restricting the power of the old oligarchy in the state industries, especially the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela. > > The pro-U.S. ruling class in Venezuela had been grumbling since the 1998 elections about Chavez’s independent foreign policy and populist rhetoric. But when he began to make moves that affected their vast wealth and private property, grumbling changed to outright opposition. A populist leader gets elected to lead a nation, the rich people who support U.S. globalization get pissed off, and this is where the U.S., through the CIA, gets involved. Our leaders have decided that our nation’s “best interests” are keeping foreign markets open for our business. Our mainstream media outlets seem to still believe that this is somehow linked with democracy and liberation, I guess. I tried to find news stories about Venezuela’s coup attempt in April (more on that in a bit) in the mainstream media. I didn’t get many hits on Google. [This article on a conservative site](http://afr.com/review/2003/06/20/FFXJ1RDN3HD.html) came up and mentions Venezuela only with vague sources linking Chavez with terrorism: > [@](#): > > Reports that Venezuela’s president, Hugo Chavez, is allowing Colombian rebels and militant Islamist groups to operate in his country are meanwhile becoming more credible, as are claims that Venezuela’s Margarita Island has become a terrorist haven. Expect to see more and more of this in the mainstream U.S. media: Chavez will be demonized as a terrorist soon enough. Until then, the CIA’s underground shenanigans will have to do. Back to the coup: Chavez’s opponents set up the government takeover so that it looked like a popular uprising. Instead, what happened is that after Chavez escaped harm, an actual popular uprising overthrew the conspirators who pulled off the coup. The people of Venezuela fought for their autonomy, and won. Really, it’s a great story. If the media would touch it. Some articles I found about the coup and the situation in Venezuela: [This one describes the coup and the uprising to defeat it.](http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=9410) A portion: > [@](#): > > Committees in Solidarity with Latin America and the Caribbean member Jorge Jorquera writes: The popular response to the April 2002 coup revealed the embryonic development of a counter-power … the organization of an uprising against the coup d’etat began in all these sectors and across them within hours of Chavez’s kidnapping on April 11. > > In the early hours of the evening of April 12, radios began to report strong cacerolazos and protests in El Valle.\_ > > - The people in Caracas’ poor hillside suburbs started to come out onto the streets. > - Protests were reported in Catia, el 23 de Enero, Guarenas, Antimano and other areas of the greater-capital. > - The Caracas-La Guaira highway was blockaded. > - At the same time protest action began throughout the country’s interior. > > … > > By 10:00 a.m. on the morning of April 13, the Palace regiment had already taken over the Palace and forced coup leaders to flee … they, too, were in contact with General Garcia Carneiro … they called a Spanish television crew to the palace and videotaped a message making it clear that the Carmona regime was not recognized. Then lieutenant-colonels Zambrano Mata and Francisco Guyon went to Canal 8 to get the recorded message out. [Here’s one article that declares this a CIA coup](http://www.pepperface.com/presswatch/coup.html) and talks about other CIA coups, including Guatemala, Chile, and the CIA coup in Iran in 1954, which eventually steered that country to religious zealotry and hatred for the U.S. I’ll print portions of the text, and I’ve bolded the evidence that America was involved (something, you’d think, that our citizens would like to know about, and U.S. media might want to check out): > [@](#): > > By now you’ve heard the official story: An unpopular > dictator, Hugo Chavez, who had praised Osama Bin Laden, was > confronted by an angry mob who demanded an end to his undemocratic rule in > Venezuela. > > His troops opened fireon the crowd, provoking the disciplined and > principled military to force him to resign his office. His State > media tried to pretend that nothing was happening, but the democratic > media showed that he was lying as they ran his statements on split > screens showing what was really happening. Later, due to pressure > from questionable governments, he was restored to office, where he faces > bad feelings due to his dictatorial actions. > > Every sentence of the official story, however, is a lie. > > Before there was Hugo Chavez, there was the CIA . The CIA is a secret > war and secret police organization. Its annual budget is well in > excess of $30 billion. The Congress members who approve its budget > are not allowed to see what the budget is for. It has > deposed dozens of governments, using techniques ranging from > propaganda and assassination to torture and anticivilian warfare. > One of its greatest accomplishments in terms of black propaganda > is convincing the American public that it is primarily a spy organization. > > … > > Chavez saw that Venezuelans were needlessly poor in > a nation that produced a major proportion of the world’s oil. He > took measures to correct the situation. Why should Venezuelans watch > all that wealth be exported while their classrooms did without books > and their graveyards filled with the uncared-for and unfed? > Chavez introduced legislation that nearly doubled the puny royalties > that the multinationals paid for Venezuelan oil. "This is a > liberating law,“Chavez said, " because it breaks the chains that have > bound us for so many years.” “This is a law for the poor.” You can > see that the poor man was doomed from the start. > > Chavez didn’t stop there. He visited Cuba and made an > offer to Fidel: Send us some teachers and doctors, and we’ll send you > some oil. Meanwhile, the rich started plotting against Chavez. > As of the beginning of this year, the Venezuelan people get a > 51% stake in all new Venezuelan oil development. One might argue: Why > shouldn’t thepeople have a cut of the oil profits? But that’s not > the sort of argument that you make where the rich can hear. And > Chavez infuriated them still further by cutting a deal with Venezuelan > indigenous peoples, guaranteeing their autonomy in regions where > the mighty gas pipelines pass. Obviously something had to be done. > The team was in place and began the long-practiced > CIA tango. CIA money was doubtless funneled to minor > henchmen in order to buy demonstrators. The media–TV this time, > since we’re past the age of radio–beat the drums of dissent, > saying that Chavez was corrupt, Chavez was finished. A “General Strike” > without workers was announced on the TV stations owned by Otto Reich’s > confidante, Gustavo Cisneros. It failed miserably, but the > corporate media repeated close-up clips of protesting crowds and > shuttered shops, to make people believe that all was lost, that most > people supported the coup. One particularly effective technique was > showing governmentannouncements of the failure of the strike while > showing pictures thatseemed to say the opposite. > > … > > **There is little doubt now of the fact that the CIA set up the > attempted overthrow of the elected government of > Venezuela. Members of the Venezuelan Parliament, notably Juan > Barreto, PedroCarrenyo and Jorge Rondon, have presented recordings > of the voices of the coup plotters, naming the Americans involved. > The American sniper is in custody. Even Newsweek has reported that > the American Embassy, read the CIA, knew of what was happening > weeks beforehand – how could they not, since their man Eliot Abrams, > convicted criminal and CIA liaison, was in charge of the whole shebang.** > The outcome is still uncertain. Will the CIA simply > assassinate Chavez? Is another coup in the offing? Will there be > a Panama-style invasion, in which Chavez’ suporters can look forward > to being burned alive like the supporters of Noreiga in El Chorrilo? > Or can Venezuelans look forward to a new era in which their > oil wealth is spread to every citizen? > > Certainly, nothing has changed here in the US. > Consider the quotes of official Washington, of Secretary of State Colin > Powell, who said Sunday, “I know of no basis for a report that we were > trying to get Chavez out…We support democracy, we support the > community of democracy that exists in our hemisphere.” And this > gem from the President appointed by the right-wing cabal of the > Supreme Court, George Walker Bush, who claims that he told the > Venezuelan coup plotters “we support democracy and did not support any > extra-constitutional action.” [Author William Blum writes here that it’s an obvious CIA coup.](http://www.counterpunch.org/blum0414.html) Blum has written some books detailing how the CIA has its tentacles in nations around the world. From the article: > [@](#): > > How do we know that the CIA was behind the coup that overthrew Hugo Chavez? > > Same way we know that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. That’s what it’s always done and there’s no reason to think that tomorrow morning will be any different. He goes on to list Chavez’s transgressions, which mainly have to do with not playing ball with the U.S. in the areas of trade, commerce, war and propaganda. Then Blum says: > [@](#): > > The Washington Post reported from Venezuela on April 13: "Members of the country’s diverse opposition had been visiting the U.S. Embassy here in recent weeks, hoping to enlist U.S. help in toppling Chavez. The visitors included active and retired members of the military, media leaders and opposition politicians. > > “The opposition has been coming in with an assortment of ‘what ifs’,” said a U.S. official familiar with the effort. “What if this happened? What if that happened? What if you held it up and looked at it sideways? To every scenario we say no. We know what a coup looks like, and we won’t support it.” > > Right. They won’t support a coup. So what happens when a coup occurs which they want to support? Simple. They don’t call it a coup. They call it a “change of government” and say that Chavez was ousted “as a result of the message of the Venezuelan people.” Veritable grass-roots democracy it was. If you look through this stuff, you’ll see that there’s some mainstream papers quoted. In other words, it’s not like the mainstream media didn’t know about the situation. They just didn’t care to learn more, and didn’t care to do any more than quote official sources. [According to this article by a Venezuelan reporter](http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=9573), the Venezuelan media, which is part of the wealthy opposition, played a big part in trying to kick Chavez out of power. This paragraph was particularly eye-opening: > [@](#): > > An ex-correspondent of CNN who covered the coup in April revealed before journalism students that one day before the coup, an informant anticipated the death of various people in Caracas, and the subsequent rebellion of a group of military officials against the Government. He also declared that the message of the military dissidents, which spoke of 6 deaths in Caracas, was recorded in his presence before the first person was killed the day of the coup. After the State television channel disseminated his testimony, the journalist retracted his statements. One day later, after being beat up by the private media, he appeared surrounded by opposition lawyers, saying that his statements were just “speculations” and accusing the Government of the deaths during the coup. The press then pardoned him and awarded him with the prize of forgetting his statements. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/2 "2003-07-16T20:11:28Z")
Yipes, that was a long post. Well, I’m pretty skeptical whenever people start claiming that the CIA is secretly behind some action down there. If this Chavez fellow is trying to steal private property for the benefit of “the people”, I have very little sympathy for him. He’s just another crook. I have no desire for us to get involved toppling him, but I’d be glad to see him and all his thieving brethren gone from the earth. I have a friend at Exxon Mobil, and he tells me that unfortunately this is how most of the world runs it’s oil industry. The government either runs the industry outright, or takes a giant chunk in “royalties” or whatever they want to call them. The goal in negotiating with those countries is to find the lowest possible rate, the most favorable contract, and hope that the contract will be honored. In nations where the gov’t has absolute power over the economy, nothing can be trusted. The way it’s looking in Venezuela from your articles, any company would be wise to stay away from investing there, as complete nationalization (aka wholesale theft) of the entire industry and all related private properties could be on the horizon. Anyways, a couple of those articles just sound like leftist conspiracy theory ramblings, especially the one from [pepperface.com](http://pepperface.com). Surely you recognize that writing style as that of a paranoid nutjob, and not a serious journalist, right? Why should the US mainstream media jump on a story that so far has no credibility? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/3 "2003-07-16T20:21:57Z")
I wrote a lengthy response to the above, but as usual the Baord had one of it’s hiccups and it got dumped, so sorry, but here’s the short version. I read both the Presswatch piece and Blum’s article, and failed to find a single statement of fact relating to possible CIA participation in the failed Venzuelan coup. There was not a single name, place or date of an specific event that showed positive CIA involvment. All I saw were a number of assertions of CIA involvement with no other factual backing than “well, they did it years ago in Guatemala/Iran/Indonesia back in the '50s/'60s/'70s, so they must have done it here”. Hell, the Presswatch pice doesn’t even attribute an AUTHOR, much less any source material on which it bases its conclusions. Also, I would like to highlight again Blum’s statement: > [@](#): > > How do we know that the CIA was behind the coup that overthrew Hugo Chavez? > > Same way we know that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. That’s what it’s always done and there’s no reason to think that tomorrow morning will be any different. In its utter lack of anything approaching objectivity, and in the author’s complete failure to provide a single verifiable supporting fact in support of this this thesis, this has to be one of the most assinine statements I have ever seen from someone purporting to be a journalist. You want to make your case? Fine. Show me something that A) indicates positivley the CIA had a hand in this failed coup, not one thirty years ago; and/or B) that the coup ONLY TOOK PLACE because of CIA involvement. I’ll be happy to evaluate the evidence when there actually is some to evaluate. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/4 "2003-07-16T20:32:31Z")
Wasn’t there a lawsuit against a jourtnalist who published some nasty things about what was happening in Venezuela and how they related to some congressman or another. The court ruled that because what was published was true that there was no case for libel. I think that there may actually be something to this’n. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/5 "2003-07-16T20:34:49Z")
Go to it **Clucky**! ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/6 "2003-07-16T20:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*Yipes, that was a long post. \*\* I know. I’ve found that if I don’t fully document my “nutjob” arguments, I leave myself open to personal attacks. Americans don’t hear this stuff enough to have a collective knowledge about it, so you have to cite, cite, cite. [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by RexDart \* **Well, I’m pretty skeptical whenever people start claiming that the CIA is secretly behind some action down there.** Don’t be. It’s well documented that the CIA has been heavily involved in Latin America’s government. You just won’t hear about it in the mainstream press, unless you dig for it, or happen across the occasional article referring to it. The stuff that’s put in those “nutjob” articles are good background. There’s [a new book](http://www.calendarlive.com/books/bookreview/cl-bk-keddie6jul06,0,499126.story) out about the CIA coup in Iran. You can [look it up here](http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html) at a “serious” news source. Of course, it’s a little late to do anything about screwing up Iran, but maybe we can avoid future mistakes if we can keep the U.S. from overthrowing democracies. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **If this Chavez fellow is trying to steal private property for the benefit of “the people”, I have very little sympathy for him. He’s just another crook. I have no desire for us to get involved toppling him, but I’d be glad to see him and all his thieving brethren gone from the earth.** I see “the people” in quotation marks, noting that you don’t believe it, but read the articles and see what laws his party has passed. Besides, what’s it to you what another nation’s legislature decides to pass? Why should the U.S. get to make final judgments on it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **I have a friend at Exxon Mobil, and he tells me that unfortunately this is how most of the world runs it’s oil industry. The government either runs the industry outright, or takes a giant chunk in “royalties” or whatever they want to call them. The goal in negotiating with those countries is to find the lowest possible rate, the most favorable contract, and hope that the contract will be honored. In nations where the gov’t has absolute power over the economy, nothing can be trusted. The way it’s looking in Venezuela from your articles, any company would be wise to stay away from investing there, as complete nationalization (aka wholesale theft) of the entire industry and all related private properties could be on the horizon.** Hmmm. Well, this explains your point of view. You’re getting your info from Exxon Mobil. I see that this type of nationalist movement surely would create great heartburn for a company that’s coming in to use another nation’s oil for its own profits. What that nation does with its natural resources and products should be up to that nation. In this case, Chavez was elected democratically, so there’s no “absolute power” involved, unless you can provide proof otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*Anyways, a couple of those articles just sound like leftist conspiracy theory ramblings, especially the one from [pepperface.com](http://pepperface.com). Surely you recognize that writing style as that of a paranoid nutjob, and not a serious journalist, right? Why should the US mainstream media jump on a story that so far has no credibility? \*\* No credibility, huh? Well, this is what I’m saying. Unless people see the “serious” media as taking up an issue, they never see it as an issue. And, if the “serious” media never take up an issue, it therefore isn’t important to us. So, if another nation’s being toppled, and it isn’t reported, it just doesn’t matter, because our corporate media, acting as just a wing of Big Business, and not as “government watchdog,” has decided it a nonissue. It’s all part of the cycle. It seems impossible to break. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/7 "2003-07-16T20:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\*You want to make your case? Fine. Show me something that A) indicates positivley the CIA had a hand in this failed coup, not one thirty years ago; and/or B) that the coup ONLY TOOK PLACE because of CIA involvement. I’ll be happy to evaluate the evidence when there actually is some to evaluate. \*\* What about this? > [@](#): > > There is little doubt now of the fact that the CIA set up the > attempted overthrow of the elected government of > Venezuela. Members of the Venezuelan Parliament, notably Juan > Barreto, PedroCarrenyo and Jorge Rondon, have presented recordings > of the voices of the coup plotters, naming the Americans involved. > The American sniper is in custody. Even Newsweek has reported that > the American Embassy, read the CIA, knew of what was happening > weeks beforehand – how could they not, since their man Eliot Abrams, > convicted criminal and CIA liaison, was in charge of the whole shebang. I will research this further, but it appears from the Venezuelan Parliament, that America is involved. If it ain’t the CIA, who else would be involved from the U.S., and does it matter if it was the CIA or the School of Americas or whomever? Blum, btw, has studied this stuff for years. He worked for the State Department. Here’s a biography: \*\*William Blum left the U.S. State Department in 1967, abandoning his aspiration of becoming a Foreign Service Officer because of his opposition to what the United States was doing in Viet Nam. Two years later he published an exposé of the CIA which was followed by numerous writings which unmasked Washington’s interventions around the world. Blum was in Chile writing about the government of Salvador Allende, who wasoverthrown by the CIA in 1973; he worked with former CIA agent Philip Agee to expose CIA personnel and their misdeeds in London; and he authored two book, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II and Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower. Blum was honored with a 1998 Project Censored award for his “exemplary journalism” \*\* While that doesn’t automatically mean he’s correct on this issue, it does make him an expert – one that the mainstream media could use as a source if they wanted to report outside an “official, P.R.” look at the matter. At the least, you’d think the mainstream media could interview some of those Venezuelan lawmakers who say the U.S. is involved. Remember, it took the BBC to interview the Iranian doctors about Jessica Lynch to get the ball rolling on the truth there. Btw, and off the OP, did you see the most recent Newsweek story about Lynch? I think it might have come directly from a government news release. I am planning on starting a thread on that alone. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/8 "2003-07-16T20:57:19Z")
The CIA may or may not have been involved, but the NSA certainly was. Venezuelan government transmissions were being intercepted by intel folk at MRSOC and passed on to supporters of the opposition. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/9 "2003-07-16T20:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Wasn’t there a lawsuit against a jourtnalist who published some nasty things about what was happening in Venezuela and how they related to some congressman or another. The court ruled that because what was published was true that there was no case for libel. > > I think that there may actually be something to this’n. \*\* Any cites at all on this, **Simon**? Or, any clues on where the congressman or journalist was from? ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/10 "2003-07-16T20:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*If this Chavez fellow is trying to steal private property for the benefit of “the people”, I have very little sympathy for him. He’s just another crook. I have no desire for us to get involved toppling him, but I’d be glad to see him and all his thieving brethren gone from the earth. > > I have a friend at Exxon Mobil, and he tells me that unfortunately this is how most of the world runs it’s oil industry. The government either runs the industry outright, or takes a giant chunk in “royalties” or whatever they want to call them. \*\* Wow! aren’t you heartless. Wouldn’t you think that a country’s natural resources should somehow benefit the people? Unfortunately, most of the world is NOT run like this. Most of the world’s oil is controlled by either dictators (hording all the proceeds for themselves) or by huge corporations (which are only motivated by profit - ie. hording all the proceeds for themselves). Maybe if we had a system in place where natural resources would actually benefit the people, instead of just benefiting the rich, we wouldn’t currently have a fascist government. If only you could go back in time to Saddam controlled Iraq - now that’s a system it seems you could enjoy. The system in the U.S. is just as good. We’ll take over a country, plunder all their natural resources, and leave them poorer and dirtier than when we started. All for the benefit of the corrupt CEO’s and their pals. Ever notice that Enron was an energy company? And good friends of the Bush’s. Cheney’s Halliburton is under investigation for accounting fraud. Ah, and the evergy taskforce and the GAO, need I go on? Put these folks in a room with their dictator pals and these are the true ‘thieving bretheren’. :smack: Benito Mussolini - “Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power.” ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/11 "2003-07-16T21:29:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\*The CIA may or may not have been involved, but the NSA certainly was. Venezuelan government transmissions were being intercepted by intel folk at MRSOC and passed on to supporters of the opposition. > > UnuMondo \*\* I wasn’t aware of that. Did a Google search. Found [this](http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0205/020519.htm): > [@](#): > > US Support for the April Coup in Venezuela > > \*Richard Bennett is the host of Intel Briefing. Wayne Madsen is a former National Security Agency officer. The following is from “US returns to bad old ways in Venezuela,” an Intel briefing posted on 4/13/02 at [www.intelbriefing.com/afi/afi020413a.htm](http://www.intelbriefing.com/afi/afi020413a.htm). \* > > Under the cover of training exercises in the Caribbean the US Navy provided signals intelligence and communications-jamming support to the Venezuelan military. Particular focus by US Navy SIGINT vessels was on communications to and from the Cuban, Libyan, Iranian, and Iraqi diplomatic missions in Caracas. The National Security Agency (NSA) supported the coup using personnel attached to the US Southern Command’s Joint Interagency Task Force East (JIATF-E) in Key West, Florida. NSA’s Spanish-language linguists and signals interception operators in Key West, Sabana Seca on Puerto Rico, and the Regional Security Operating Centre in Medina, Texas also assisted in providing communications intelligence to US military and national command authorities on the progress of the coup d’etat. > > From eastern Colombia, CIA and US contract military personnel, ostensibly used for counter-narcotics operations, stood by to provide logistics support for the leading members of the coup. Patrol aircraft operating from the US Forward Operating Location (FOL) in Manta, Ecuador also provided intelligence support for the military move against Chavez. Additional US Navy vessels on a training exercise in the Outer Range of the US Navy’s Southern Puerto Rican Operating Area also stood by; some of these vessels reportedly had NSA Direct Support Units aboard to provide additional signals intelligence support to US Special Operations and intelligence personnel deployed on the ground in close co-operation with the Venezuelan Army. > > For its part, the CIA provided Special Operations Group personnel. They had been in the country since the summer of 2001. The group reportedly made contact with senior, pro-US military officers, and business and union leaders, especially those with the state-owned oil company, PDVSA, and the Venezualan Workers’ Confederation (CTV). > > The coup was also supported by Special Operations psychological warfare (PSYOPs) personnel deployed from Fort Bragg, North Carolina. They put together Spanish-language television announcements, purportedly from Venezuelan political and business leaders and aired by Venezuelan television and radio stations, saying Chavez “provoked” the crisis by ordering his supporters to fire on peaceful protesters in Caracas. US electronic warfare technicians also helped to jam cell phone and radio frequencies in Caracas and other major cities in co-operation with the Venezuelan Army High Command. And [this piece](http://64.239.13.64/free/ww3/050702_miracle.html), quoting the same fellows quoted in the above article. A portion: > [@](#): > > “The NSA supported the coup using personnel attached to the U.S. Southern Command’s Joint Interagency Task Force East (JIATF-E) in Key West, Fla.,” wrote Madsen and Richard M. Bennett on the Intel Briefing website. "NSA’s Spanish-language linguists and signals interception operators in Key West; Sabana Seca on\_Puerto Rico and the Regional Security Operating Center (RSOC) in Medina, Texas also assisted in providing communications intelligence to U.S. military and national command authorities on the progress of the coup d’etat. > > “From eastern Colombia, CIA and U.S. contract military personnel, ostensibly used for counter-narcotics operations, stood by to provide logistics support for the leading members of the coup. Their activities were centered at the Marandua airfield and along the border with Venezuela. Patrol aircraft operating from the U.S. Forward Operating Location (FOL) in Manta, Ecuador also provided intelligence support for the military move against Chavez. Additional USN\_vessels on\_a training exercise in the Outer Range of the U.S. Navy’s Southern Puerto Rican Operating Area also stood by in the event the coup against Chavez faltered, thus requiring a military evacuation of U.S. citizens in Venezuela. The ships included the aircraft carrier USS George Washington and the destroyers\_USS Barry, Laboon, Mahan, and Arthur W. Radford. Some of the\_latter vessels\_reportedly had NSA Direct Support Units aboard to provide additional signals intelligence support to U.S. Special Operations and intelligence personnel deployed on the ground in close co-operation with the Venezuelan Army\_and along the Colombian side of the border.” > On how he learned of these U.S. coup connections, the intelligence analyst told FTW via e-mail, “It happened by circumstance that I was in attendance at a military banquet in Tysons Corner, near CIA HQ the night the coup took place, and I merely blended in with some of the active and retired contractor officers who were talking freely about what was occurring.” Madsen also has a number of other sources, he said. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/12 "2003-07-16T21:37:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > **Wow! aren’t you heartless. Wouldn’t you think that a country’s natural resources should somehow benefit the people? Unfortunately, most of the world is NOT run like this. Most of the world’s oil is controlled by either dictators (hording all the proceeds for themselves) or by huge corporations (which are only motivated by profit - ie. hording all the proceeds for themselves).** **akrako** , I couldn’t have said it better. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/13 "2003-07-16T21:56:06Z")
Clucky, are you a writer for _La Prensa_? This is well presented. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/14 "2003-07-16T22:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > ## What about this? quote: > > ## There is little doubt now of the fact that the CIA set up the attempted overthrow of the elected government of Venezuela. Members of the Venezuelan Parliament, notably Juan Barreto, PedroCarrenyo and Jorge Rondon, have presented recordings of the voices of the coup plotters, naming the Americans involved. The American sniper is in custody. Even Newsweek has reported that the American Embassy, read the CIA, knew of what was happening weeks beforehand – how could they not, since their man Eliot Abrams, convicted criminal and CIA liaison, was in charge of the whole shebang. Same problems as I stated: an assertion that “Americans were named” without, er, naming the Americans, and an assertion that Eliot Abrams is in charge of a destabilization program, but neither clearly dfiening the nature of the program nor how the author knows that Abrams is its head. Look, what I’m trying to point out here is the difference between polemic and journalism. The item **Unomundo** posted, and that you have quoted, makes a far more credible case for US meddling in Venezuela than the vague rantings you quoted in your OP. Also, not to be mean about this, but in your support of Blum you seem to to be employing the fallacy of “argument from authority”. I don’t care what Blum’s background is, he fails to provide fact one to make his case. With that out of the way, I guess we can finally get to the meat of the OP. It seems that the OP’s position is that the major US media is deliberately avoiding discussion of a possible US covert role in the attempted Venezuelan coup. I can conceive of several reasons why this might be so, but I am curious as to which the OP thinks is the most likely case and why (or, if there’s another reason, feel free to explain). The reasons, in no particular order: 1. Major media are afraid of losing access to administration sources if they investigate this issue 2. Major media reject non-government sources of information on this issue as either untrustworthy or agenda-driven 3. Major media are suppressing the story out of a misplaced sense of patriotism 4. Major media find the story to be of insufficient interest to the public at large (read: consumers) to bother investigating further 5. Major media are deliberately colluding with government officials to bury this story, in exchange for known or unknown considerations 6. Major media are deliberately colluding with government officials to bury this story, due to government threats or intimidation 7. Major media are afraid of losing advertising revenue, for one reason or another, if they pursue this story. 8. Major media are following a long-standing tradition of paying little attention to stories which do not directly affect domestic conditions or pose an immediate danger to US military or civilian lives. Three comments, and my contribution to this thread is finished. Firstly, I do not believe that while major media may be neglecting a potential story here, I do not see any compelling reason to believe they are deliberately suppressing it. Secondly, I continue to fail to see why such emphasis on whether major US media lead the coverage on this or not; I have heard the argument about ‘shaping the debate’ and find it irrelevant. I submit it is not up to the major media, or any single organisation, to ‘shape the debate’, it is up to the individual, and anyone who looks to the major media do their thinking for them is a fool of the first rank. Thirdly, I personally don’t care from what organization a responsible journalist comes from If this story is getting out, it is more due to the unbelievably shoddy journalistic standards displayed in the articles quoted by the OP, than any overt or covert supression by the mass media. Over to you. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/15 "2003-07-16T22:39:23Z")
Sorry, as usual my proofreading is shoddy as well. Last sentence should start, “If this story is NOT getting out…” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/16 "2003-07-16T23:13:02Z")
[brief hijak] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clucky \* > \*\* > Btw, and off the OP, did you see the most recent Newsweek story about Lynch? I think it might have come directly from a government news release. I am planning on starting a thread on that alone. \*\* You should start a file where you document different sources and resources. compile your cites. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/17 "2003-07-17T14:31:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **Also, not to be mean about this, but in your support of Blum you seem to to be employing the fallacy of “argument from authority”. I don’t care what Blum’s background is, he fails to provide fact one to make his case.** Well, no, I’m asserting that this guy is an expert, in that he’s studied CIA affairs for a few decades now. I’m saying he seems to be someone who the media might want to talk to if they were interested in getting an unofficial look at the story. While he certainly didn’t provide facts in the article I posted, he does give an expert opinion, no different than those “expert opinions” from official sources who inundated the air waves concerning Gulf War II. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\*It seems that the OP’s position is that the major US media is deliberately avoiding discussion of a possible US covert role in the attempted Venezuelan coup. I can conceive of several reasons why this might be so, but I am curious as to which the OP thinks is the most likely case and why (or, if there’s another reason, feel free to explain). The reasons, in no particular order: > > 1. Major media are afraid of losing access to administration sources if they investigate this issue > > 2. Major media reject non-government sources of information on this issue as either untrustworthy or agenda-driven > > 3. Major media are suppressing the story out of a misplaced sense of patriotism > > 4. Major media find the story to be of insufficient interest to the public at large (read: consumers) to bother investigating further > > 5. Major media are deliberately colluding with government officials to bury this story, in exchange for known or unknown considerations > > 6. Major media are deliberately colluding with government officials to bury this story, due to government threats or intimidation > > 7. Major media are afraid of losing advertising revenue, for one reason or another, if they pursue this story. > > 8. Major media are following a long-standing tradition of paying little attention to stories which do not directly affect domestic conditions or pose an immediate danger to US military or civilian lives.\*\* I think it’s a number of reasons. I think No. 1 applies. Media certainly do pander to officials in hopes of getting the “inside scoop,” regardless of whether the inside scoop comes only from official sources, thereby showing one side of the story. No 2 certainly applies, because as part of the mainstream media, you begin to view yourself as THE voice of reason, THE holder of truth, THE official voice. The last being the only legitimate claim in our society. No. 3 applies. The media have closely linked themselves with the interests of our government, which is in turn closely linked with the interests of Big Business, which also owns the major media. The people who own the media are the same as the people who run our country who are the same as the people who own Exxon Mobil and the like. There’s a similiar mindframe. When they say “patriotism,” have no doubt that this means supporting our troops overseas, because they are, with little doubt, fighting for liberation. If you buy that line of thinking, then you wouldn’t see anything wrong with the way the Venezuelan story is being treated. I don’t buy No. 4. This has nothing to do with what the people want to see. With a story written well enough, and printed in major newspapers and aired on TV, you could easily sell Chavez the hero. Unless, of course, Chavez is immediately demonized as supporting terrorists. See my reply to No. 7. Nos. 5 and 6 get into the conspiracy theory realm. I’m not saying these things haven’t happened or couldn’t happen, but that they’d have less to do with the media not covering the event than with the media identifying with the government and its objectives. No. 7 is interesting. If the rest of the media are saying Chavez is a terrorist, of course it would be dangerous for a major media outlet to portray him as a hero. I don’t think this reason applies so much, because the media won’t even get to the point where they consider the Venezuelan coup and subsequent popular uprising as a story – unless official government sources come out and tell them that it’s a story. No. 8 certainly applies. It’s easy to ignore these stories, because the wealthy, privileged people who run the corporations, including the media, don’t see this as important stuff. I would think their views would be similar to that of **Rexdart** – “If this Chavez fellow is trying to steal private property for the benefit of ‘the people’, I have very little sympathy for him. He’s just another crook.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\*Three comments, and my contribution to this thread is finished. > > Firstly, I do not believe that while major media may be neglecting a potential story here, I do not see any compelling reason to believe they are deliberately suppressing it.\*\* Okay. They’re indifferent. But, why? Why do we hear a lot of news of certain other foreign events, let’s say terrorist attacks on Israel, but not about an attempted coup to overthrow a democratically elected government in Venezuela? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **Secondly, I continue to fail to see why such emphasis on whether major US media lead the coverage on this or not; I have heard the argument about ‘shaping the debate’ and find it irrelevant. I submit it is not up to the major media, or any single organisation, to ‘shape the debate’, it is up to the individual, and anyone who looks to the major media do their thinking for them is a fool of the first rank.** Well, an individual can shape the debate all he wants for those within earshot. He’ll have very little effect. Give him access to mass media, and you have a different story. I think it’s that simple. While you think that people who let the major media shape their thinking are fools, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s exactly what’s happening. I don’t fault them. I was one of them, and I understand how it can happen. We have “freedom of the press,” and people think that this automatically means that the media will inform us. It’s a propaganda tool, and it works. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **Thirdly, I personally don’t care from what organization a responsible journalist comes from If this story is getting out, it is more due to the unbelievably shoddy journalistic standards displayed in the articles quoted by the OP, than any overt or covert supression by the mass media.** Well, I guess you could blame the alternative media for the mass media’s failure to report this, based solely on your view of the quality of the initial articles I posted. I fail to see how this really relevant, given that the Venezuelan government is still there and open for interviews about their plight against the corporate plot to overthrow their democracy. All a reporter would have to do is try to contact these people and ask them their views. I remember in Reporting 101, on the first day there, when the professor talked about getting information from all sides to write a balanced story. I guess that just doesn’t apply to our media when they’re coving an American transgression. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/18 "2003-07-17T14:48:40Z")
Here’s the Right-Wing conspiracy version > [@](#): > > [What Really Happened in Venezuel](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/17/231158.shtml) > > The Venezuelan coup and the seemingly easy return of Chavez to power smacked of a Soviet-style provocation. > > During the Cold War, the KGB perfected this technique. A new communist leader, not firmly in power, would pretend that he was being ousted in a coup. > > As word was announced that the leader was indeed ousted, his opponents, some of whom had been working quietly behind the scenes, would reveal themselves. > > Soon, the “coup” would be crushed by forces friendly to the “ousted” dictator. > > Once firmly back in power, the dictator would have a list of opponents from which to make reprisals and clean house. His grip on power would be firmer than ever, his opponents would fear him even more. > > - All Rights Reserved © [NewsMax.com](http://NewsMax.com)\* ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/19 "2003-07-17T14:53:15Z")
Relevant bits from [Auntie Beeb](http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/chavez.shtml) [Chronicle of a Coup](http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/backgrd/coup.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/20 "2003-07-17T15:15:12Z")
I have no sympathy for Chavez or his methods or for the USA meddling in Venezuela’s internal affairs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945.md?page=2)