# The latest CIA coup, or Let's Learn about Venezuela **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945 "2003-07-16T18:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/21 "2003-07-17T15:36:50Z")
That documentary wasn’t a Beeb production, rather it was being made for Irish television when the coup happened. It won World Best Television Programme earlier this year. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/22 "2003-07-17T16:50:37Z")
The page that i linked to _is_ **from** the Beeb. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/chavez.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/chavez.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/23 "2003-07-17T17:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Here’s the Right-Wing conspiracy version \*\* **Simon** , that’s the same right-wing source I found that had actually referred to the coup. I especially appreciated the propaganda here: > [@](#): > > The protest – a legitimate form of expression for Americans – was not taken nicely by the budding dictator Chavez. He callously ordered troops and snipers to fire upon the innocent protesters, as did members of his revolutionary guerrillas that he has been arming. > > We now know that 12 people died under his orders. > > Little of Chavez’s outrage, and his growing creation of a Marxist state, have made it on to CNN or in to the pages of the New York Times. Instead, the American media says Chavez is a "populist” leader. Notice how they’re already making it sound like The Big, Bad Liberal Media® is suppressing the “real truth” by making it appear Chavez is a “populist” leader. Well, the guy was elected to office twice, so you can’t call him a dictator. You can only allege that he’s “acting” like a dictator. (You know, like when a nation’s leader makes up or supports lies to lead the nation into an illegal war trumped up by his circle of confidantes. 😉 ) Notice that the word Marxist is used. See, this is a propagandist’s weapon. He uses a word that has an established, negative past in the U.S. Is Chavez a Marxist? What does it mean to _be_ a Marxist? Nevermind. It’s understood in this article that it means Chavez is bad. The rest of that article’s just a bunch of lies that surely came straight from the State Department. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/24 "2003-07-17T18:55:04Z")
**Clucky** - You seem to have skipped right past the part where you actually show that the CIA was involved. You don’t do your central thesis any favors by repeating “why won’t the mainstream media accept the unsubstantiated accusations of the most extreme fringes of the Left as gospel? It must be a conspiracy!” Where there is smoke, there is sometimes fire. But sometimes, it is just someone blowing smoke. The “alternative media” is not ever going to become mainstream and credible until they do _a lot_ better than this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/25 "2003-07-17T19:16:19Z")
**Clucky** , I suggest that you ask yourself why, if you can so readily apply that sort of critical eye (and rightly so, I might add) to the article that **SimonX** posted, can you not do the same to the material you posted in your OP? ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/26 "2003-07-17T19:56:52Z")
[This Human Rights link](http://amlat.oneworld.net/article/archive/1730/) gives more information on U.S. involvement (bullying) in Latin American virtually ignored by the mainstream media. Some quotes, in which I’ve bolded some items I found particularly interesting: > [@](#): > > Colombia: U.S. “Misses an Opportunity” > Certification Not Based on Facts > (New York, July 8, 2003) The U.S. State Department’s human rights certification for Colombia does not hold that country accountable for its failure to break persistent links between the military and abusive paramilitary groups, Human Rights Watch said today. > > Today’s certification releases approximately $27 million in military aid. It marks the fifth time in three years that the State Department has certified Colombia despite compelling evidence of non-compliance with six conditions contained in Public Law 108-7, which regulates foreign aid for fiscal year 2003. Colombia receives the third largest amount of U.S. military aid, after Israel and Egypt. > > \*\*The most important condition requires Colombia’s armed forces to sever links with paramilitary groups. Yet the Colombian military continues to work with paramilitaries that are included on the State Department’s list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. \*\* > > “At a time when the United States has unprecedented influence over Colombian affairs, this is a missed opportunity to gain real advances,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Executive Director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. “The U.S. failure is especially striking now, since the bulk of the aid-over $300 million-is not subject to human rights conditions. In other words, certification can no longer be explained away as necessary to serve other policy goals, such as the fight against illegal narcotics.” > > \*\*Vivanco noted that the negative effect of the certification is compounded by the U.S. decision on July 1 to suspend $5 million in military aid to Colombia for its refusal to exempt American citizens from prosecution before the International Criminal Court. > > “The Bush administration has consistently argued that it couldn’t hold up aid to the Colombian military over its collusion with human rights abusers. Now, it turns out that they’re perfectly willing to suspend aid, but only when countries like Colombia resist granting immunity for possible crimes against humanity. This sends a perverse signal about American priorities,” Vivanco said. \*\* > [@](#): > > Guatemala > > Amnesty International Targets Guatemalan Intelligence Agency with Blood on Its Hands > > Flash Animation is First on Portillo’s de facto Death Squad > > (New York) - Amnesty International (AI) today is releasing the first Internet “flash” movie addressing a Guatemalan military outfit that operates as a squad of spies and assassins and has a long history of human rights abuses. \*\*While Guatemalan President Alfonso Portillo† has promised to dismantle the EMP (Estado Mayor Presidencial)-his Presidential General Staff-he not only continues to fund the unit, but has consistently increased its budget by millions of dollars annually since he was elected to office. > > … > > The EMP has committed countless heinous human rights violations since it was formed in the early 1980s.\*\* Among human rights crimes suspected to be linked to the EMP are the 1990 murder of internationally known social scientist Myrna Mack, the 1994 murder of Constitutional Court President Eduardo Epaminondas González Dubón, and the 1998 murder of Catholic Bishop Juan José Gerardi. EMP “members” have also manipulated evidence, threatened and even killed witnesses in ongoing judicial proceedings for these and other human rights cases. > > Portillo has promised every year since his January 2000 inauguration to dismantle the notorious EMP, as required under the Peace Accords signed by the Government in 1996. But as of mid-2003, just over 200 of the EMP’s 650 members have been transferred from the EMP into service and administrative positions. These transfers have not included the EMP’s notorious military specialists. †[The U.S. supports Portillo](http://usembassy.state.gov/guatemala/wwwhvportillopowelle.html), and in this State Department press statement \*\*Powell “expressed appreciation for the counter-terrorism measures undertaken by the Guatemalan Government, including its public statements, its ratification of key international conventions and its passage of anti-money laundering legislation.” More importantly, Powell thanks Portillo for his “enthusiasm for President Bush’s proposal to explore a free trade area with Central America. We look forward to Guatemalan society participating fully in the process and benefits.”\*\* What’s the free trade area? Think it favors the many poor people in Latin America over corporate interests waiting to turn a buck? Well, [of course not](http://amlat.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.id21.org%2Fsociety%2Fs7box1g1.html). It’s another piece of the American globalization puzzle, which you can either help put together and receive U.S. rewards (financial aid), or you can resist and pay the consequences (aid to opposition groups friendly to U.S. corporate interests). Anyway, seems to me the U.S. could begin the fight against terrorism by ending its support of terrorism. Where’s the media on this? ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/27 "2003-07-17T20:20:25Z")
I thought we were talking about Venezuela? ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/28 "2003-07-17T20:20:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\ ***Clucky** - > > You seem to have skipped right past the part where you actually show that the CIA was involved\*\* Well, quibble with whether it was the CIA. But, I think there’s enough evidence that the U.S. was involved. Enough for the media to investigate. This was my original thesis: **I’m going to use Venezuela as an example. I will argue that the CIA inspired the attempted coup in April against the rightfully elected nationalist leader, Hugo Chavez, as it has with so many Third World countries that have decided to stray from the U.S. vision of globalization. Or, I think I can at least show that there’s enough evidence that the media should be investigating this distinct possibility.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **You don’t do your central thesis any favors by repeating "why won’t the mainstream media accept the unsubstantiated accusations of the most extreme fringes of the Left as gospel? It must be a conspiracy!"** Heh. I didn’t say that. That’s not my argument. If you read carefully, you will see that I just want to know why the mainstream media won’t investigate this more carefully. Why not take this opportunity to look seriously at how the U.S. can bully a Third World nation. They don’t have to “accept” anything. But, they do regularly accept the word of official U.S. sources, giving us an “official” view when we look at the news. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Where there is smoke, there is sometimes fire. But sometimes, it is just someone blowing smoke. > > The “alternative media” is not ever going to become mainstream and credible until they do _a lot_ better than this.\*\* What you call “a lot better,” can you expound on that a little? I’ve pieced together a decent amount of evidence, including a person who actually talked to CIA operatives who said that the U.S. was involved in this coup. I did this by going to alternative sources. I don’t have to apologize. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Clucky, I suggest that you ask yourself why, if you can so readily apply that sort of critical eye (and rightly so, I might add) to the article that SimonX posted, can you not do the same to the material you posted in your OP?** Well, I didn’t say I was perfect, nor that every leftist writer is perfect, nor that I believe _everything_ I read if it’s from the left. But, I will admit that I have my own biases, having been exposed to knowledge of how the U.S. exploits other nations, without little notice from the mainstream press. It’s like what Blum said. You start paying attention to this stuff, and you can tell what’s happening from similar circumstances that occurred in the past. The CIA regularly involves itself in these types of coups. It’s part of history that gets largely ignored. It matters who you believe. I believe the author who says that the Venezuelan legislators had American names involved with the coup and an American sniper in custody after the coup. That, to me, was enough evidence to show me that the U.S. was involved, when combined with my knowledge of other CIA coups. Turns out, there was other legitimate evidence out there that the U.S. was involved, particularly the NSA and quite probably the CIA, since the one source says he got his information talking with CIA operatives. I couldn’t find that info at first, and thank goodness it was out there, but it doesn’t change the fact that, I believe, my point is valid. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/29 "2003-07-17T20:26:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5-HT \* > \*\*I thought we were talking about Venezuela? \*\* We were. And, to bolster my arguments that the U.S. bullies Latin American nations, I wanted to expound and put the argument in context. A Venezuelan coup doesn’t come as much of a shock if you know the history of our doings in the southern hemisphere. Check out the Human Rights link I posted above and read through the problems they’re having down there. You find that the U.S. usually is exacerbating the problems. I’ve also thought about posting info about past coups led by the CIA, to put things in context. I just might. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/30 "2003-07-18T00:20:17Z")
Yeah, Clucky, show us some real evidence, like a news release from the CIA, saying “We did the coup in Venezuela.” I am kidding of course… Of course the CIA was involved, you idiots!!! This is exactly what they are chartered to do, protect the interests of US corporations overseas. Read Philip Agee’s book, “Inside the Company.” The CIA is the Ur-corporation, the corporation above all corporations. That is why they call it, “The Company.” BTW, nationalizing property of transnational corporations is NOT theft. The country pays a fair price for it. When Arbenz expropriated the property of United Fruit in order to institute land reforms, he paid United Fruit the price that they said the property was worth. United Fruit stole it right back after the CIA-backed coup. When Castro nationalized property in Cuba, he offered to pay for it, but the US corporations refused to accept payment. That is their fault and their loss. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/31 "2003-07-18T00:36:41Z")
Let me see if I have the thesis correct. 1. The CIA is evil. 2. As proof of this, we have the example of the CIA helping to bring about a coup in Venezuela. 3. How do we know the CIA was involved? 4. Because the CIA is evil. Is that about it? ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/32 "2003-07-18T03:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Let me see if I have the thesis correct. > > 1. The CIA is evil. > 2. As proof of this, we have the example of the CIA helping to bring about a coup in Venezuela. > 3. How do we know the CIA was involved? > 4. Because the CIA is evil. > > Is that about it? \*\* You know, I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to pull out the big guns, but, you know, you asked for it, so here it is: :rolleyes: 😛 Anyhoo, you can try to sum it up in this manner, **Sam** , but I don’t think what you had to say at all reflects this thread, in tone or content. Please, if you will, look at some of the specific allegations and respond. Another plea. Learn more about the CIA. Go to an “unofficial” source. Read the Agee book that **Roger** recommends. Or, read Blum’s books. I haven’t read them myself, although I’ve read enough of his interviews online to know what he knows. I plan on reading the books, too. Maybe I can start a Leftist/Evil CIA/Corporate Amerika Book Club. 🆒 Sometimes I just have to lighten this subject matter up, or otherwise it depresses me. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/33 "2003-07-18T04:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roger\_Mexico \* > \*\* > Of course the CIA was involved, you idiots!!! This is exactly what > they are chartered to do, protect the interests of US corporations overseas. Read Philip Agee’s book, “Inside the Company.” > > When Castro nationalized property in Cuba, he offered to pay for it, but the US corporations refused to accept payment. That is their fault and their loss. \*\* Conversely, I could argue the CIA _wasn’t_ involved because of the lack of activity and all encompassing ineptness of today’s CIA, as Robert Baer notes in his book _See No Evil._ As for Castro, one hijack: Did Castro pay compensation for the thousands he had murdered at La Cabana? Just curious. :wally ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/34 "2003-07-18T04:59:48Z")
Posted by **SimonX:** > [@](#): > > Here’s the Right-Wing conspiracy version > > ## quote: > > What Really Happened in Venezuel > > The Venezuelan coup and the seemingly easy return of Chavez to power smacked of a Soviet-style provocation. > > During the Cold War, the KGB perfected this technique. A new communist leader, not firmly in power, would pretend that he was being ousted in a coup. > > As word was announced that the leader was indeed ousted, his opponents, some of whom had been working quietly behind the scenes, would reveal themselves. > > Soon, the “coup” would be crushed by forces friendly to the “ousted” dictator. > > **Once firmly back in power, the dictator would have a list of opponents from which to make reprisals and clean house.** His grip on power would be firmer than ever, his opponents would fear him even more. > > All Rights Reserved © [NewsMax.com](http://NewsMax.com) > > * * * (Emphasis added.) That raises an interesting question: How much “cleaning house” has Chavez actually done since the coup? Did he have enemies who only came out in the open when the coup started? Has he since had any of them arrested? Fired? Snubbed? None of the news reports I’ve heard from Venezuela since the coup mention this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/35 "2003-07-18T08:21:40Z")
Just from memory: many of the coup plotters maintain positions in opposition groups, some are beginning to be removed by the opposition itself (about time!) and the law (although you could make a case that Chavez is behind) has arrested the most notorious coup plotters (reading about the evidence against them, I think those arrests were justified), others just have jumped ship, and sleeked asylum, not because they were going to be killed, but arrested also. Still: some “dictator”! In contrast to countless others, he has allowed the very virulent anti-Chavez press to continue (even though it was a factor in the coup), and there is no concerted effort to hunt down and kill the opposition (_harassing_ could be the word I use). That, and taking into account what the opposition was planning to do to any Chavista in a post coup Venezuela, is the reason why I pragmatically support Chavez now; still, if I were Venezuelan, I would be working to get a good candidate against him in the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/36 "2003-07-18T10:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > As for Castro, one hijack: > > Did Castro pay compensation for the thousands he had murdered at La Cabana? Just curious. :wally \*\* I don’t know. Did the US government pay reparations to Nicaragua for the 30,000 people they murdered there, after being ordered to do so by the International Court of Justice? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/37 "2003-07-18T15:24:27Z")
I would like to see a cite for the assertion that there’s an American in custody for the sniper attacks during the protests. I can find a cite that _anybody’s_ in custody for it- I’ve been looking and found bubkus. And if Chavez doesn’t want to get demonized as a supporter of terrorists, [maybe he shouldn’t be pen pals with Carlos the Jackal](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/0,9171,1107990510-25003,00.html). Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/38 "2003-07-18T15:31:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Conversely, I could argue the CIA _wasn’t_ involved because of the lack of activity and all encompassing ineptness of today’s CIA, as Robert Baer notes in his book _See No Evil._ \*\* Well, the coup failed, so maybe this supports the theory that an inept CIA was involved. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/39 "2003-07-18T17:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*I would like to see a cite for the assertion that there’s an American in custody for the sniper attacks during the protests. I can find a cite that _anybody’s_ in custody for it- I’ve been looking and found bubkus. > > And if Chavez doesn’t want to get demonized as a supporter of terrorists, [maybe he shouldn’t be pen pals with Carlos the Jackal](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/0,9171,1107990510-25003,00.html). Just a suggestion. \*\* I don’t understand that letter, either. It is puzzling, and I’m not sure how Chavez identifies with Sanchez. I don’t know much about Sanchez, actually, or his reasons for killing. Perhaps Chavez thinks Sanchez was wrongly accused for some reason, or justified in his cause. I have no idea. Of course, if the U.S. welcomed Chavez as a justly elected leader, instead of working in consort with his political enemies, perhaps he’d identify with our leaders and our country. Just maybe. And, he wouldn’t be looking to befriend our known enemies. At any rate, Chavez isn’t a Boy Scout. I know that. What he IS is democratically elected. [Here’s more about snipers apprehended](http://www.narconews.com/communitymedia1.html) during the coup, written by a reporter/columnist who is in Venezuela. > [@](#): > > After the shooting began, authorities of the government of President Hugo Chávez immediately apprehended some of the rooftop snipers who had lit the fuse to the violence. But after Chávez himself was placed into custody later that day by military generals, the rooftop assassins, whose identities are still unknown, were incredulously set free by the dictatorship of Pedro Carmona - and this tells us everything about which side hired those snipers - as the dictator-for-a-day Carmona simultaneously abolished the Congress, the Supreme Court and the Constitution. The snipers were let go by Carmona, according to this report. NarcoNews is the Web site this comes from, and this reporter (well, he writes more like a columnist) obviously has been keeping close tabs on the situation. (I admit this sheds no light on the claim that the snipers were Americans. Have to keep looking for another source about this.) [Here, he details the coup](http://www.narconews.com/threedays.html). Lots of interesting items in this, including this: > [@](#): > > Coup Central: > The CIA Bunker in Caracas > > A report would appear two days later in the daily Panamá América newspaper that shed light on how oil union boss Carlos Ortega, the number-two coup organizer (among the Venezuelans involved) second only to oilman-turned-dictator-for-a-day Pedro Carmona, became head of the oil union and consequently of Venezuela’s equivalent of the AFL-CIO. > > Translated by The Narco News Bulletin: > “Months ago, we warned that the U.S. government had put a plan in march to topple Venezuela’s president Hugo Chávez. Working with agents of the CIA and with members of the military group that the Pentagon maintains in Caracas to supervise U.S. arms sales in the region, the strategies from the Potomac joined forces with the opponents of the president. Bankers, businessmen and politicians donated funds to creat the marches and protest that detonated the crisis. Money from the opposition served to influence union elections and the control of the petroleum workers union, the most important in Venezuela…” > Narco News has learned that the CIA headquarters for organizing, distributing said cash, and engineering the attempted coup d’etat, was the office known as the MIL GROUP. That’s the name by which the US Military Liason staff in Embassies - “usually a repository for fixers and grafters pitching Department of Defense sponsored weapons sales to third world satrapies,” as one source colorfully explained to Narco News - had, according to another well-placed source, greatly increased its staff size in the weeks prior to the attempted coup. > > We presume the increase in personnel - or individuals posing as personnel at the MIL GROUP - was not due to a sudden desire by Washington to sell more arms to the Chavez government. Then, he quotes Madsden, the former NSA officer whose unique perspective was cited above, naming the Navy, NSA, CIA and US contract military personnel as being involved. I’m reading all this guy has to say on the coup. I’ll come back with another post talking about some of the points he makes, especially about how the U.S. media propagandized the situation beforehand to make Chavez look like another militaristic thug, setting the background for when they could report that it was a “popular uprising,” not a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/40 "2003-07-18T18:09:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roger\_Mexico \* > \*\*I don’t know. Did the US government pay reparations to Nicaragua for the 30,000 people they murdered there, after being ordered to do so by the International Court of Justice? \*\* Who said anything about Nicaragua? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945.md?page=3)