# The latest CIA coup, or Let's Learn about Venezuela **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945 "2003-07-16T18:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/41 "2003-07-18T19:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Who said anything about Nicaragua? \*\* Not to speak for **Roger** , but my view is that you have to consider the U.S.'s involvement in Latin America in context. When discussing U.S. policy in Venezuela or any other single Latin American nation, it’s important to look at the big picture. Our government has supported many brutal dictators in the southern hemisphere at the cost of many lives of innocent people and to the detriment of democracy and freedom. With that track record, the U.S. deserves a critical look during these types of issues. So, I think it’s fair to point out atrocities such as Roger’s example in Nicaragua, one of many. Now, I’m not condoning Castro for his murders. But, the U.S. isn’t any better. It’s hard for us to point fingers. Well, on second thought, actually, I guess it’s not, given the free pass the U.S. government is given at home in the media. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/42 "2003-07-18T19:19:32Z")
I read the article and it seems to me that you’ve been sucked in by socialist propaganda. The article is in no way even-handed but blatantly biased. The byline > [@](#): > > 18.04.2002 (By Andy McInerney/ Workers World News Service) should give people a clue right from the get-go. You should read alternative opinions too. Like Chavez likening the Catholic Church to a [tumour](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F07%2F12%2Fdb1202.xml). And he doesn’t have a problem with expelling troublemakers according to [this article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2893885.stm) by the BBC. The guy’s no angel. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/43 "2003-07-18T19:33:44Z")
That’ll teach me to proofread - I meant to say **imprisoning** rather than expelling - he expelled the coup leaders which is understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/44 "2003-07-18T19:50:55Z")
Here is some more socialist propaganda, from Workers Vanguard. We need it to offset all of that capitalist propaganda we get every day. This article gives specific info about the involvement of the National Endowment for Democracy (a well known CIA front) and the AFL-CIA. “The April 12 coup had Washington’s paw prints all over it. In the months leading up to the coup, U.S. officials repeatedly met with Venezuelan business and military leaders who opposed Chávez and later played prominent roles in the military takeover. The budget earmarked for Venezuelan opposition groups by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a CIA front, was quadrupled to more than $877,000. According to the London Guardian (29 April), U.S. navy ships “helped with communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military.” The day of the coup, the head of the International Republican Institute, the Republican Party’s conduit for international political subversion, proclaimed, “The Venezuelan people rose up to defend democracy in their country.” But as the coup quickly unraveled, within two days Washington was furiously backpedaling.” [snip] “As in virtually all interventions by U.S. imperialism in Latin America, the wretched bureaucrats of the AFL-CIO, loyal servitors of their capitalist masters, were in the baggage train. The AFL-CIO’s international arm, the American Center for International Labor Solidarity, served as a conduit for NED funds, channeling $154,377 to the Venezuelan CTV. Two months before the coup, the AFL-CIO sponsored a U.S. tour by CTV tops, paid for by the NED. The CTV bureaucrats who participated in a closed forum in Washington reportedly “noted that they were here to discuss the chances for a coup” (Labor Notes, May 2002).” [http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/Ven787.htm](http://www.icl-fi.org/ENGLISH/Ven787.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/45 "2003-07-18T21:12:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*I read the article and it seems to me that you’ve been sucked in by socialist propaganda. The article is in no way even-handed but blatantly biased. > > … > > You should read alternative opinions too. Like Chavez likening the Catholic Church to a [tumour](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F07%2F12%2Fdb1202.xml). And he doesn’t have a problem with expelling troublemakers according to [this article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2893885.stm) by the BBC. > > The guy’s no angel. \*\* Well, I’m not sure which article you’re referring to, but of course the articles and columns I’ve posted are biased. The question is whether they’re truthful. I think the saddest thing is when the U.S. mainstream media print propaganda for the government under the guise of being nonbiased, of being “the fourth estate.” As for the “tumour” article, that’s just a feud between Chavez and the Catholic Church in Venezuela. I read the article, and it looks like Chavez has a point if this is true: > [@](#): > > Simmering tensions between Church and State flared into an open feud in January 2002, when Chavez denounced bishops who had criticised a priest for officiating at a pro-government Mass. In his long weekly television broadcast, he accused them of living in swanky palaces, driving fast cars and rarely visiting slum-dwellers. “Listen, you’d better examine your consciences,” he said. “Go in front of God, and pray 20 Our Fathers and 20 Hail Marys.” Just seems like a conflict in views. Nothing wrong there, in a democracy, that is. (Although, I hope he had no knowledge of the incident where someone threw a grenade in the Cardinal’s home. That’s uncool, and there was no evidence in the article suggesting Chavez was involved.) And the other article you linked just confused me. I guess you’re referring to this: > [@](#): > > Another strike leader, Carlos Fernandez of the Venezuelan business confederation Fedecameras, is under house arrest facing treason charges. > > A court ordered him to be released last week after deeming the evidence insufficient, but the attorney general has appealed the decision. > > Seven former executives of the state oil company PDVSA emerged from hiding last week after a judge revoked warrants for their arrests on charges of interrupting the country’s fuel supply. One person was arrested on suspicion of treason. We’d do that here in the U.S., too, if the government thought someone was involved in trying to overthrow the government. Heck, they’d probably have fewer rights here, who knows? The other seven former executives of PDVSA were accused of interrupting with the country’s fuel supply. That’s serious stuff, there, if true. I’d sure like to know the political leanings of the judge who let these people go without further scrutiny. Seems to me that Chavez has been very restrained in many of these matters. He’s letting the political process work on its own, even if it might be broken. Just sounds like you’re looking to quibble, with no substance. At any rate, if the people of Venezuela have a problem with the way Chavez is running things, they should vote him out of office. Same as we do in our beloved republic. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/46 "2003-07-18T21:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clucky \* > \*\*At any rate, if the people of Venezuela have a problem with the way Chavez is running things, they should vote him out of office. Same as we do in our beloved republic. \*\* [That’s what they’re trying to do.](http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/world/5972154.htm) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/47 "2003-07-18T21:37:38Z")
this we don’t do: > [@](#): > > Experts said the deal is a tacit acknowledgement of victory for Chavez, who months ago agreed to hold a binding referendum **midway through his term**. Though maybe we should sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/48 "2003-07-18T21:41:50Z")
Should’ve used this for my quoted part: > [@](#): > > This is a positive development, but there are still a lot of issues to work out and continuing distrust," said Michael Shifter, a senior fellow at the Inter-American Dialogue in Washington. > > “The referendum is the best mechanism at this time to resolve the crisis, but it’s naive to think this will bring Venezuelans together. This will be a long process,” he said. > > Experts said the deal is a tacit acknowledgement of victory for Chavez, who months ago agreed to hold a binding referendum midway through his term. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/49 "2003-07-18T21:59:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*[That’s what they’re trying to do.](http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/world/5972154.htm) \*\* Interesting. Notice that this wasn’t some kind of groundswell campaign, but an accord that Chavez voluntarily signed. He thinks he’ll win the election. He’ll have to deal with the corporate-run media and their shenanigans, but he’s doing it anyway. That’s pretty gutsy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/50 "2003-07-18T22:28:19Z")
Clucky, don’t you think his tactics sound remarkably similar to Mugabe’s? ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/51 "2003-07-19T00:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Let me see if I have the thesis correct. > > 1. The CIA is evil. > 2. As proof of this, we have the example of the CIA helping to bring about a coup in Venezuela. > 3. How do we know the CIA was involved? > 4. Because the CIA is evil. > > Is that about it? \*\* Analogous to this argument: 1. Saddam is evil. 2. As proof of this, we have the example of Saddam attempting to obtain nuclear weapons. 3. How do we know that Saddam was attempting to obtain nuclear weapons? 4. Because Saddam is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/52 "2003-07-19T06:56:44Z")
WRT Saddam, what about all those mass graves? What about his prior use of WMD? What about his prior invasion of Kuwait? ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/53 "2003-07-21T07:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*WRT Saddam, what about all those mass graves? What about his prior use of WMD? What about his prior invasion of Kuwait? \*\* Which mass graves? The shiites that were slaughtered with Schwarzkopf’s permission using US-supplied helicopters? Which prior use of WMD? The Kurds that got caught in the crossfire of the Iran-Iraq war and were killed with cyanogen chloride, a chemical weapon used by Iran not Iraq? What about the invasion of Kuwait? The US has invaded dozens of countries since WWII. Maybe we should bomb ourselves for the aggression we have committed in the world. Oh, I forgot, we are the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![zemtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/bcef8e/32.png) [@zemtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zemtar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/54 "2003-07-21T08:05:57Z")
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/42244.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/42244.stm) It seems like the Jackal considered himself to be some kind of Marxist revolutionary or something. Maybe that is why Chavez sees him as a kindred spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/55 "2003-07-21T14:07:13Z")
**zemtar** , from your link: > [@](#): > > Born in Venezuela in 1949, he is a son of a millionaire Marxist lawyer, who demonstrated the depth of his Communist convictions by dividing the name of the leader of the Russian revolution between his three sons, calling them Vladimir, Ilich and Lenin. > > In the mid-1960s, Ramirez moved with his family to London and began to polish the linguistic skills which would one day allow him to pose as a language teacher - the cover for his terrorist career. > > He began acting in the name of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine after leaving Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow, a notorious hotbed for recruiting foreign communists to the Soviet Union. > > After three years in solitary confinement in a Paris jail, Carlos the Jackal has been sentenced to life imprisonment for killing two French secret agents and a Lebanese fellow revolutionary in 1975. > > Unrepentent to the end, he raised a defiant fist as he was led away to the cells. Ramirez was born in Venezuela and obviously has a hatred toward the Israeli/Western policies toward Palestine, according to this article. That also probably plays a part. I’m not defending Chavez, though. I know posters want to point out Chavez’s flaws, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I certainly wouldn’t want my nation’s leader to be associated with a known assasin/terrorist. Then, again I don’t want my nation engaging in policies that amount to terrorist activities, either. But, think about this: If the U.S. would help such fledgling democracies as Venezuela, instead of trying to topple their leaders, maybe the people will eventually vote in the best choice. The U.S. quite likely is helping the oligarchy in Venezuela make Chavez a hero. I realize I said earlier that the U.S. media could sell Chavez as a hero. I really don’t want that. I’d rather have them just try to get to the real issues, and not demonize him because he’s not a capitalist. Our leaders shake hands with much worse killers. Much, MUCH worse killers. Such as Saddam, back when he was an “ally.” That is, when he played ball with the U.S. He was no worse or better back in 1990. But, he was our guy. Rummy shook hands with Saddam, for anyone who hasn’t seen that photo. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/56 "2003-07-21T14:18:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*Clucky, don’t you think his tactics sound remarkably similar to Mugabe’s? \*\* Not really. [Mugabe](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/643737.stm) seems different to me. Unless you can show how the two are similar. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/57 "2003-07-21T18:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roger\_Mexico \* > \*\* > Which prior use of WMD? The Kurds that got caught in the crossfire of the Iran-Iraq war and were killed with cyanogen chloride, a chemical weapon used by Iran not Iraq? > \*\* Kurds that got killed in the crossfire. Good euphemism for genocide, there. Tell that to the families of the some 200,000 Kurds that perished in Operation al-Anfal. This was not crossfire. This was genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/58 "2003-07-22T01:04:58Z")
No worse than the genocide of the Kurds by the Turkish government: [http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/kurds.html](http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/kurds.html) Let’s bomb Turkey! Actually, the first country to use chemical weapons on the Kurds was the British. Let’s bomb London! ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/59 "2003-07-22T02:26:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roger\_Mexico \* > \*\*No worse than the genocide of the Kurds by the Turkish government: > > [http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/kurds.html](http://www.ozgurluk.org/hrights/kurds.html) > > Let’s bomb Turkey! > > Actually, the first country to use chemical weapons on the Kurds was the British. > > Let’s bomb London! \*\* I said nothing about genocide being a reason for going to war. Did I? No. Now put your self-righteousness back in the closet. ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945/60 "2003-07-22T17:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clucky \* > \*\* > One person was arrested on suspicion of treason. We’d do that here in the U.S., too, if the government thought someone was involved in trying to overthrow the government. Heck, they’d probably have fewer rights here, who knows? > \*\* Ahh, good point. That explains why all the 1960s-era revolutionaries in the USA have since been charged with treason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-cia-coup-or-lets-learn-about-venezuela/188945.md?page=4)