Now, just to be perfectly sure we’re clear on this.
Saddam attacks Kurdish terrorists, and he equals an evil dictator who needs to be overthrown.
US drops a few 2000 lb bombs on some terrorists, and we equal valiant heroes defending freedom.
Step 3 = profit
Right?
Nope, the SOP of the Marines should be to blow shit out of the building terrorists are gathering in. Your Hypothetical wasn’t even close.
Kurdich Terrorists? Please explain
Ah, I see.
Police in America should never kill a civilian hostage (and usually not even the suspect, until given a fair trial)
Marines in Iraq should drop a few bombs and see what bodies turn up.
Gotcha, as long as we’re humane.
You think Saddam and Turkey have been abusing the Kurds for the hell of it?
Oh, that’s right. Our enemies are evil because of some innate evilness, not for any reason. We’re evil for damn good reasons, though, making us better.
Um…you don’t happen to have a cite for all these acts of terrorism that caused Saddam to wack hundreds of thousands of Kurds do you Zag? I haven’t heard about general acts of terrorism in Iraq prior to Saddam bringing out the gas (Turkey might be another matter, though I haven’t really heard about all that many Kurdist terror acts within Turkey…I know there have been a few though). Maybe you are refering to the abortive rebellion after the first Gulf War?
I’m assuming you are just being hyperbolic as far as comparing what Saddam did to the ‘kurd terrorists’ with what we’ve done…or do you REALLY think that the bombing of what appears to be a terrorist safe house, albiet with ‘innocent’ women and children in it, compares to gassing whole villages and summary executions? I think you are having trouble with your placement of the 10’s column… Just trying to get you to be clear on this…
-XT
Who do you think kept Iraq’s northern oilfields and pipelines shut down? Ents?
Now, I’m not saying that the Kurd rebels in the north (or the Northern Alliance rebels in Afghanistan) were as “bad” as or did as evil things as Al Qaeda (I certainly don’t recall any of them flying airliners into skyscrapers), but these people aren’t exactly the most innocent angels on the face of the planet. Some groups of them were armed rebels seeking an independent state, not unlike Chechnya, which is why Iraq and Turkey have been spending so much time and effort to dislodge them (that, and they’re sitting on oil fields). I would figure some of the Kurds to be closer to the KLA, which also was viewed as a terrorist group.
Saddam may have been an amoral, evil dictator, but he only did things for his own benefit. He didn’t gas the Kurds for shits and giggles (though he may well have enjoyed it, I don’t know, I am not familiar with the man personally).
If you really like, I will start digging for cites, however don’t be surprised if you don’t find many. It isn’t like the Iraqi media was very forthcoming, or like any Western sources (which are surely the only ones you would trust, as opposed to biased Iraqi state media, who we all know are lying scumbags) reported a great deal on the attacks. If you want to begin a search with me, I suggest starting at human rights groups.
I think the most you’ll find is things like this from AI
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE141342003
“The uprisings by Shi’a Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north that followed the 1991 war were brutally crushed by Iraqi forces.”
“Ethnic minority groups include Assyrians, Kurds and Turkmen. Kurds are the largest ethnic minority and live mostly in the north. After a 1970 autonomy agreement broke down in 1974, fighting resumed between Kurdish Pesh Merga and Iraqi forces. In 1991 the Iraqi government withdrew from the Kurdish region, and since regional elections in mid-1992 Iraqi Kurdistan has been relatively autonomous.”
I’ll add for your benefit:
“Since the Ba’athist military coup in July 1968 several hundred people have been arrested. The majority are still held without charge, but scores have been tried for ‘espionage’ and 36 have been executed. Amnesty International made a formal request to the government for permission to send an observer to the trials but the request was ignored.”
“The UN-imposed economic sanctions on Iraq from 1990 contributed to the early deaths of countless people, particularly children, and to widespread hardship. From 1998, UK and US military forces carried out repeated air strikes, causing civilian casualties, while maintaining “no fly zones” in the north and south of the country.”
"The US and UK governments repeatedly stated that they had “no quarrel with the Iraqi people” and that they would do everything possible to minimize casualties. However, the prolonged and intense bombardment in or near residential areas inevitably maimed and killed civilians, including children. Hospitals around the country were overwhelmed by the number of injured people arriving at their doors.
On 6 April 'Ali Isma’il 'Abbas, aged 12, was asleep when a missile obliterated his home and most of his family, leaving him orphaned, badly burned and without arms. The boy’s father, pregnant mother and eight other close relatives were killed in the attack on their house in Diyala Bridge district, east of Baghdad.
Iraqi forces breached international humanitarian law by using tactics that blurred the distinction between combatants and civilians.
Amnesty International called for all credible allegations of unlawful killings of civilians to be fully investigated and for those found responsible to be individually held to account.
Thousands of prisoners were detained by military forces during the war on Iraq. According to UK authorities on 3 April, more than 5,300 Iraqi prisoners of war were being held by US and UK forces.
Amnesty International was concerned that all those held should have immediate access to the International Committee of the Red Cross without exception, and that all should be accorded protection according to international law.
Amnesty International delegates raised reports of ill-treatment of prisoners of war with the US and UK authorities.
Amnesty International called on the US and UK governments to:
n treat all prisoners of war in conformity with the Third Geneva Convention;
n issue clear instructions to their forces to treat humanely all prisoners, the wounded and those who surrender;
n ensure that all those responsible for breaches of the laws of war are brought to justice. "
“In Iraq, Kurds have faced similar repression. After the Kurds supported Iran in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, Saddam Hussein retaliated, razing villages and attacking peasants with chemical weapons. The Kurds rebelled again after the Persian Gulf War only to be crushed again by Iraqi troops. About 2 million fled to Iran; 5 million currently live in Iraq.”
"Meanwhile, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, the PKK, currently waging a guerrilla insurgency in southeastern Turkey, has rejected the Iraqi Kurds’ decision to seek local self-government within a federal Iraq. The PKK believes any independent Kurdish state should be a homeland for all Kurds.
Over the years, tensions have flared between the PKK, led by Abdullah Ocalan, and Barzani’s KDP faction, which controls the Turkey-Iraq border. Barzani has criticized the PKK for establishing military bases inside Iraqi-Kurd territory to launch attacks into Turkey. Meanwhile, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, the PKK, currently waging a guerrilla insurgency in southeastern Turkey, has rejected the Iraqi Kurds’ decision to seek local self-government within a federal Iraq. The PKK believes any independent Kurdish state should be a homeland for all Kurds.
Over the years, tensions have flared between the PKK, led by Abdullah Ocalan, and Barzani’s KDP faction, which controls the Turkey-Iraq border. Barzani has criticized the PKK for establishing military bases inside Iraqi-Kurd territory to launch attacks into Turkey. "
“1946: Kurds succeed in establishing the republic of Mahabad, with Soviet backing. But a year later, the Iranian monarch crushes the embryonic state.”
“* 1979: Turmoil of Iran’s revolution allows Kurds to establish unofficial border area free of Iranian government control; Kurds do not hold it for long.”
“Kurds in northern Iraq – under a British mandate – revolt in 1919, 1923 and 1932, but are crushed.”
[QUOTE=Zagadka]
"The UN-imposed economic sanctions on Iraq from 1990 contributed to the early deaths of countless people, particularly children, and to widespread hardship. QUOTE]
Still spewing this crap even after the billions Saddam spent on Palaces & billions to line the pockets of UN diplomats. Unbelievable.
Well, I haven’t found much so far…just stuff about the rebellion after the '91 gulf war. Certainly it was NOTHING like the situation is today in Iraq. No reference to Ba’athists officials being wacked or attempted to be wacked (well, not by ‘rebels’ anyway…Saddam did his fair share of wacking his own officials appearently), no general terrorism, no accounts of car bombs, etc. It was an uprising, no doubt, and I’m sure there were acts of terrorism by the Kurds and other factions as well. And as you are well aware, they were put down brutally…orders of magnitude more brutally than the US would ever dream of.
But we are drifting off on a tangent with this IMO. Lets not get into a comparison of who is worse, or realitive morality and ethics of terrorists vs ‘evil dictators’ vs ‘evil Presidents/Administrations’.
You are appearently saying that even if it was a terrorist safe house that the US wasn’t justified in taking it out from the air but should have…what? Sent in troops to take it in a ground assault? And you think this would have been better somehow? Do you REALLY think that sending in the Marines (probably with chopper and armor support) would have somehow been ‘cleaner’, or that there would have been less (or no?) civilian casualties?? What do you base that on? Or are you offering some alternative? Simply let them stay there? Send in the police to arrest them (I’m sure they would go quietly)? What Zag? Assume for a moment that the information was true and there really WERE terrorists in that safe house, will tons of weapons and ammunition. What alternative are you offereing to what was done…and how would it have been better?
-XT
Link for above
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/feb99/kurdprofile.htm
In any case, the Kurds are hardly innocent people minding their own business. They’ve been in varying levels of revolt since Iraq, Syria, and Turkey were created by the Brits, and to this day they are rebellious aspects. Many view their current state in Iraq to be the cornerstone for an autonomous Kurdistan.
Their revolts may not be causeless (nothing is causeless), but they’ve done a bit to invite some pain on themselves.
We also fell for the puppy-dog face of the KLA, and that brought us to a rather muddled area indeed. I fear we are making the same mistake again.
But in general, let me just remind you all - Just because there are “some terrorists in there” does not give justification to begin dropping bombs over residential neighborhoods - it is the exact same thing that we criticized Saddam for, and I’ll guarantee you dollars to donuts that the Iraqis recognize it for the same thing. THAT is why the insurgency is so strong.
THAT is all you can reply to?
Pfft. Weak.
Well, first of all, I wouldn’t have the city being sieged.
Second of all, I wouldn’t be dropping bombs willy-nilly on every suspected safehouse.
If I had total control of the situation, yes, I would send in the Marines - or rather, Iraqi armed forces, not American. They are hardly incapable of doing an insertion and arrest. They did hundreds in Afghanistan. Yep, it might cost a life or two, or it may go down the shitter and cost all 22 lives.
But they aren’t in the military to sit around a campfire and drink beer. It certainly wouldn’t have the repurcussions that simply dropping bombs in residential neighborhoods would have.
You all wave this off - wave off the DEATHS OF 22 CIVILIANS - because there was maybe possibly some weapons stored there.
At the same time, you (not you personally, you the opposition, you the Milums and the Starving Artists of the world) sit back and lament the death of one American at the hands of the evil terrorists.
That kind of thinking is EXACTLY the same that justifies slaughter of civilian populations across the world.
I’ll remind YOU that we didn’t bomb a ‘neighborhood’…we bombed a specific house. Had we generally bombed a neighborhood I can pretty well guarentee you the body count would have been a hell of a lot higher than 20-30. THATS the kind of thing Saddam got criticized for…i.e. think there might be a few insurgents in a village? Gas the whole village then and execute the survivors.
Again I’ll ask you…whats your alternative? Send in ground troops? Send in the police? Just let the terrorists be? Send them some flowers? What? Remember that the military was convinced that not only was it a safe house, not only did it have weapons stored there, but that some of the AQ leadership was there as well. So Zag, here’s your big chance…what would YOU have done, and how would it have been better?
-XT
Oh, so the difference is that we have precision guided bombs and he doesn’t. Big whoop.
I’ll forgive you for your harsh words and not previewing, but please try to make an effort to be fair in the future.
Actually, they said that they were sure that he wasn’t there, and it isn’t Al Qaeda leadership, it is a Jordanian group whose name I forget at the moment.
Well, for one? I wouldn’t be there. O_o
Now X, I’m going to go watch some TV, so if I don’t reply to you within 20 seconds, don’t hyperventilate 
Still trotting out stupid arguments.
Pfft. Weak
Trouble with air strikes is thier finality, there are no options. If a Marine is on the scene, and peers through his sights at an unarmed woman or child, he almost certainly won’t pull the trigger. Shrapnel has no such capacity for discrimination, it tears up whatever is at hand.
And again, there is the “hearts and minds” aspect of this. This “war” will not, indeed, can not, be won by direct force. When we send in an air strike, it appears to them that we hold the lives of civilians to be inconsequential, that we are willing to have them be expendable in order to keep our soldiers from harm.
This engenders resentment, and enmity, thus actually increasing the threat. If we were to show that we were willing to incur risk in order to protect the innocent, this could have an enormous impact on our credibility. Without it, we are just another occupying army. Without it, it doesn’t matter how many schools we paint and soccer balls we buy. We lose.