# The latest in abortion insanity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590 "2016-05-12T03:11:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/1 "2016-05-12T03:11:33Z")
This one really has to be seen to be believed. A new abortion-related law has been passed in Utah: [http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-utah-abortion-20160510-20160509-snap-story.html](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-utah-abortion-20160510-20160509-snap-story.html) [QUOTE=Molly Hennessy-Fiske, Los Angeles Times] The law, which takes effect Tuesday, requires doctors to provide anesthesia or painkillers to women seeking an abortion 20 weeks or more into a pregnancy. The pain medication is for the fetus. Though such late-term abortions are rare – just 17 in Utah in 2014, according to the local Planned Parenthood chapter – the “fetal anesthesia” law scares doctors like Torres. [/QUOTE] The details are in the article, including that doctors tend to disagree with the scientific basis for fetuses of that age being able to feel pain. Sounds skeevy to me, but whatever. But here’s the kicker: [QUOTE=Molly Hennessy-Fiske, Los Angeles Times] The law also requires doctors to notify women that medical evidence shows a 20-week fetus may feel pain during an abortion. **The law exempts cases of rape, incest, where a woman would die or where two doctors agree the fetus has a “uniformly lethal” condition**. [/QUOTE] (emphasis mine) So, even given the contested assumption that the fetus _is_ able to feel pain, it’s alright for some fetuses to get painkillers but not others??? I just have to wonder if there are some connections missing in certain conservative minds. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/2 "2016-05-12T03:28:22Z")
One of the major problems for “pro-life” people is that they have to either support killing a baby for crimes its father committed, or forcing a woman to carry her rapist’s baby to term. Both of these are horrible things that moral people can’t abide, so there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance required to get around the issue. I think this sort of law comes from dealing with that dichotomy, that they feel like the fetus of a rapist is somehow different than any other fetus, so it doesn’t actually count as a baby, so it’s fine to kill it, oh and if it’s not a baby it doesn’t need painkillers either. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/3 "2016-05-12T04:00:12Z")
> [@](#): > > have to wonder if there are some connections missing in certain conservative minds. Yes, we protested quite vigorously against this insane law. There’s no evidence whatsoever that a 20 week old fetus can feel pain. It’s pretty clear that the fetal nervous system hasn’t developed sufficiently to feel pain until 27 weeks, and even the most conservative folks say 24 weeks is a fine cutoff for them. Prior to 24 weeks it is a mindless lump of tissue, at some vague time after that, it slowly develops a brain. It is, however, quite clear that giving anesthesia to adult women can and does cause severe complications and death in some cases. It is also expensive. I personally spoke to the person who sponsored this law, a male GOP, never been pregnant, cannot ever be pregnant, no medical training, and he spewed a series of profanities at me that I wish I had illegally recorded. Anyway, the only possible outcomes of this law are that a) women who cannot find their way to an abortion clinic prior to 20 weeks will be subjected to possible disability and/or death for no medical reason, and if they survive will have to pay hefty bills for the totally unnecessary drugs, and I hope anyone forced to undergo this will sue the state of Utah; b) doctors will refuse to perform abortions after 20 weeks due to the fact that they cannot figure out how to comply with the bizarre law and are worried about killing healthy women, so we will end up with a small number of women forced to carry dying fetuses with chromosomal abnormalities or other serious birth defects to term, causing incredible suffering; or c) a concern many doctors raised, is that under this vague law, all women giving birth in Utah will have to be placed under general anesthesia in case the fetus suffers any pain, which will cause a drastic uptick in the maternal and stillborn rates. That’s what happens when you let male GOP politicians play woman’s doctor. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/4 "2016-05-12T04:18:11Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > I personally spoke to the person who sponsored this law, a male GOP, never been pregnant, cannot ever be pregnant, no medical training, and he spewed a series of profanities at me that I wish I had **illegally** recorded. Utah’s a one-party state (in more ways than one). What would have been illegal about recording your conversation with him? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/5 "2016-05-12T04:44:14Z")
I don’t really see a debate, here. Off to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/6 "2016-05-12T06:31:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > …it’s alright for some fetuses to get painkillers but not others??? Because, naturally, babies born of rape/incest are inherently filled with sin and deserve to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/7 "2016-05-12T07:03:17Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > Yes, we protested quite vigorously against this insane law. There’s no evidence whatsoever that a 20 week old fetus can feel pain. It’s pretty clear that the fetal nervous system hasn’t developed sufficiently to feel pain until 27 weeks, and even the most conservative folks say 24 weeks is a fine cutoff for them. Prior to 24 weeks it is a mindless lump of tissue, at some vague time after that, it slowly develops a brain. I did a quick Google and the most preemie babies were both born at 21weeks, 5 days. 24 weeks is definitely more than a lump of tissue. I’m going to assume that a viable fetus is able to feel pain. You may want to have a look at a fetal development chart. I think your timeline is somewhat off. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/8 "2016-05-12T07:24:42Z")
> [@zoogirl](#): > > I did a quick Google and the most preemie babies were both born at 21weeks, 5 days. 24 weeks is definitely more than a lump of tissue. I’m going to assume that a viable fetus is able to feel pain. “Viable” is a purely technological definition; it just means medical science can _sometimes_ keep it alive. It has nothing to do with them being fully functional organisms. At any rate the [evidence is against it being possible](http://www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/), they don’t have the right parts yet. > [@](#): > > Published research generally supports an experience of pain being possible only later in gestation than 20 weeks. A synthesis of available evidence was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2005 by experts from the University of California, San Francisco, and elsewhere, and their report concluded: “Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.” The third trimester begins at 27 to 28 weeks from conception. > > The perception of pain requires an awareness of an unpleasant stimulus — receptors throughout the body must send a signal to the brain, where it can be processed as pain. One reason the JAMA review finds early pain perception unlikely is that the connections between the thalamus, a sort of relay center in the brain, and the cortex have not yet formed. This happens between 23 and 30 weeks gestational age, and the authors argue these connections are a precursor for pain perception. They also cite studies using electroencephalography that have shown the capacity for functional pain in preterm newborns “probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/9 "2016-05-12T08:47:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Utah’s a one-party state (in more ways than one). What would have been illegal about recording your conversation with him? Well, suspending the bill’s sponsor by his heels over a vat of boiling oatmeal while making the recording probably would have been illegal (even if he did deserve it). ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/10 "2016-05-12T09:45:13Z")
How come they are talking about abortions on 20 week old fetuses? Those only happen under the most extreme and rare of circumstances. Abortions are done , when they are done, around 7 weeks, when there is not yet a baby rather an embryo. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/11 "2016-05-12T09:48:32Z")
Just how much more expensive would anaestesia make the procedure? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/12 "2016-05-12T10:08:23Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > How come they are talking about abortions on 20 week old fetuses? Those only happen under the most extreme and rare of circumstances. Because they like to pretend that it’s common, and done for trivial reasons. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Just how much more expensive would anaestesia make the procedure? Nobody has any idea \*how \*to do it, except maybe putting the woman herself under. Which is dangerous to her as well as unnecessary, I’ll point out. But given that, it would presumably cost as much as general anesthesia before surgery does. Along with the money needed to get the needed equipment & drugs and hire a professional anesthesiologist. I’ve no idea how much all that costs though. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/13 "2016-05-12T10:50:22Z")
I am pretty sure that general anesthesia doesn’t affect the fetus. I had an emergency C-section under general, and was told my son came out red and screaming. This is apparently common. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/14 "2016-05-12T11:13:34Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > How come they are talking about abortions on 20 week old fetuses? Those only happen under the most extreme and rare of circumstances. Because it allows them to chip away at abortion rights a little bit at a time. If 20 weeks is approved, next year they will try for 19 weeks. Let’s call it “testing the waters” before diving in. If they can get away with 20, is 18 so hard? We’ve already agreed on the principle, now all we have to decide is the exact number. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/15 "2016-05-12T12:09:00Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > How come they are talking about abortions on 20 week old fetuses? Those only happen under the most extreme and rare of circumstances. Do you have a cite for this? I assume we are talking about the US. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/16 "2016-05-12T12:57:45Z")
> [@zoogirl](#): > > I did a quick Google and the most preemie babies were both born at 21weeks, 5 days. 24 weeks is definitely more than a lump of tissue. I’m going to assume that a viable fetus is able to feel pain. You may want to have a look at a fetal development chart. I think your timeline is somewhat off. Bad assumption. WhyBaby was born at 23 weeks and 6 days of pregnancy, making her 21 weeks, 6 days gestation. She is one of the earliest micropreemies to survive (and she’s 11 now and doing wonderfully, thanks for asking) She showed no indication of feeling pain for several weeks, even through some rather painful procedures like intubation (for which they don’t routinely sedate micropreemies) and IV sticks and a central line and blood draws from her heels. No grimace, no cry, no turning of her head away from the source of stimulation. Not even the decorticate or decerebrate response that you see in someone in a coma. If she’d needed to be euthanized for some reason, I would have asked for pain control for my sake, but not hers. It just feels wrong to do painful things to a baby, but actual science doesn’t always support our feelings. Right around what would have been 27 weeks gestation is when her body language and vocalizations changed to clearly indicate pain. That’s also, coincidentally or not, the point at which a fetus is actually, meaningfully, “viable” without extraordinary measures like ventilators and IV (parenteral) nutrition. It’s still dicey, but it’s when your premature baby might survive even without hospital care. > [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? I assume we are talking about the US. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s likely down to under 1% now, with the increase in antiabortion laws in the last few years. 8 years ago, it was 1.3% after 20 weeks. > [@](#): > > In 2008, most (62.8%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks’ gestation, and 91.4% were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation. Few abortions (7.3%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. During 1999–2008, the percentage of abortions performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation remained stable, whereas abortions performed at ≥16 weeks’ gestation decreased 13%–17%. Moreover, among the abortions performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation, the distribution shifted toward earlier gestational ages, with the percentage of abortions performed at ≤6 weeks’ gestation increasing 53%. [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/17 "2016-05-12T13:52:50Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > One of the major problems for “pro-life” people is that they have to either support killing a baby for crimes its father committed, or forcing a woman to carry her rapist’s baby to term. Both of these are horrible things that moral people can’t abide, so there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance required to get around the issue. Along with killing a baby is murder and doctors should be procecuted, but not the mothers that actually go in and request the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/18 "2016-05-12T13:54:04Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > I personally spoke to the person who sponsored this law, a male GOP, never been pregnant, cannot ever be pregnant, no medical training… Can we please stop with these arguments that men cannot have valid opinions on abortion issues because we can’t get pregnant? If a woman had said the exact same thing, would it somehow be more relevant? Hell, just because a woman can get pregnant doesn’t mean she really understands anything about the medical, legal or ethical issues involved. In fact, that’s exactly WHY I support legalization of abortion, because I’m NOT a medical professional, and even knowing what I know, I know enough to know that the circumstances for any particular case are impossible to fit with a one-size-fits-all set of rules that any sort of anti-abortion law will inevitably create, without either being so convoluted as to be incomprehensible and useless, or likely making matters worse in other ways. It’s a decision that needs to be made within the context of the situation and with the woman and the medical professionals involved. Men are NOT the enemy, ignorance and assertion of one person’s moral judgments on another person are. All of that said, this law looks ridiculously stupid. Even if one believes that abortion, or at least ones after some arbitrary point are an evil, based on the numbers, there are plenty of other evil things that are far more prevalent. Further, I hate the idea of the government requiring the doctor to say things that aren’t really backed up by medical evidence. Instead, I’d rather rely on the doctor understanding the specifics of the situation and the mother herself hopefully bearing some responsibility and doing a bit of research herself, not just taking a drug store pregnancy test, waiting a period of time for no particular reason, then showing up at the doctor and asking for a medical procedure will-nilly. We generally trust doctors to provide basic information, make an analysis about whether or not that person is a good candidate and receive informed consent for virtually every other procedure, why is this one so special? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/19 "2016-05-12T14:29:10Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > We generally trust doctors to provide basic information, make an analysis about whether or not that person is a good candidate and receive informed consent for virtually every other procedure, why is this one so special? Say it again for the people in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590/20 "2016-05-12T14:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The law exempts cases of rape, incest, where a woman would die or where two doctors agree the fetus has a “uniformly lethal” condition. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So, even given the contested assumption that the fetus _is_ able to feel pain, it’s alright for some fetuses to get painkillers but not others??? I just have to wonder if there are some connections missing in certain conservative minds. To be fair, my impression has always been that generally pro-life people would rather _not_ include these kinds of exceptions, but do so because pro-choice folks vocally bring up these sorts of cases as being philosophical reasons to allow abortion. It’s not that there’s a pro-life disconnect, but rather a pragmatic thought that if baking in these exceptions makes it that much easier to get a law passed that heavily restricts abortions, then they’ll take it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-in-abortion-insanity/754590.md?page=2)