# The latest on civil suits ( lawfare) against Trump with possible political effect **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 25, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464 "2021-01-25T14:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/1 "2021-01-25T14:47:08Z")
Today, voting equipment company Dominion sued Guliani for 1,3 billion dollars for defamation. My question, why sue Guliani? Why not Trump or Fox News? Guliani doesn’t have millions. > **[Election technology company Dominion sues Giuliani for $1.3 billion over 'Big...](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/25/politics/dominion-lawsuit-giuliani/index.html)** > > An election technology company that has been the focus of consistent conspiracy theories by Donald Trump and his allies has sued the former President’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani for defamation after he pushed the “Big Lie” about election fraud on his... ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/2 "2021-01-25T15:01:17Z")
I’m certain Dominion has no expectations that they’re going to recover anything like $1.3 billion from Giuliani. They understand he doesn’t have that kind of money, but their plan at this point has less to do with money than providing deterrence. They’ve targeted individuals who invoked their company’s name in connection with groundless conspiracy theories to make examples of them. Seems to be working. Folks like Trump, Lou Dobbs, and other fascists are shutting the eff up - at least as far as spreading that particular conspiracy theory - since they sent out cease and desist letters and followed up promptly with filing suit. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/3 "2021-01-25T15:01:24Z")
Because they threatened to sue Fox and Fox ran segments on how everything they said about Dominion was without evidence. They were bullshit segments compared to having the hosts actually apologize, but they could complicate a lawsuit against Fox sufficiently that Dominion doesn’t want the hassle. > **[Fox, Newsmax shoot down their own aired claims on election](https://apnews.com/article/fox-newsmax-smartmatic-dominion-lawsuits-826071eb5b52ec8aea6b0028da78c61c)** > > NEW YORK (AP) — Two election technology companies whose names have come up in President Donald Trump's false charges of widespread voter fraud in the presidential election are fighting back, prompting unusual public statements from Fox News and... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/4 "2021-01-25T15:05:49Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > My question, why sue Guliani? Because, as a member of the bar, Giuliani (and Sidney Powell) has some duty to not make false legal claims. I don’t understand all the details, but lawyers are at greater legal risk of slander and libel. Competent lawyers can easily avoid the risk; others may not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/5 "2021-01-25T15:09:11Z")
Two possible reasons come to mind. First, Guiliani was one of the most vocal, making that argument repeatedly in front of the tv cameras. That’s good evidence both of the statements he made, and the potential harm to Dominion’s good reputation, because Guiliani was the one saying it so clearly. Second, in court, Guiliani never advanced those arguments and specifically said in one court appearance that they were not alleging any fraud. That also is very good evidence for Dominion, that he has contradicted his own position, and has no credibility if he now tries to assert that the machines were fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/6 "2021-01-25T16:55:44Z")
Cardigan, the article said Guliani also got cease and desist letters. Why did he keep repeating the same specific lie while Trump got more vague in his tweets? (“The election was rigged, dead people voting, but I’m not mentioning the voting machines…”) Maybe Guliani offered himself up to be the target, especially because of the higher standards for lawyers as Pleonast pointed out. He probably does not mind much losing his lawyers license. Still, it’s kinda weak on Dominions part. They could have gone after Fox much harder and get a deterrant with teeth/money. But Naira is probably right that Fox backpedalled just enough… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/7 "2021-01-25T18:43:12Z")
Looks like Rudy will bring in enough politics to this lawsuit. From the CNN article in the OP: “Dominion’s defamation lawsuit for $1.3B will allow me to investigate their history, finances, and practices fully and completely,” Giuliani told CNN in a statement Monday. “The amount being asked for is, quite obviously, intended to frighten people of faint heart. It is another act of intimidation by the hate-filled left-wing to wipe out and censor the exercise of free speech, as well as the ability of lawyers to defend their clients vigorously.” **He said he will "investigate a countersuit against them for violating these Constitutional rights.**" My bolding. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/8 "2021-01-25T19:11:14Z")
Locrian, I hate to admit it, but that IS a masterful counterstrike on Guliani’s part. He gets to stay in the news and what can Dominian do? Sue him for 0,5 billion more? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/9 "2021-01-25T19:48:12Z")
Good point, but what constitutional rights will his suit claim? The right to claim Venezuela is all to blame? 😃 I think he’ll lose so bad he tries to sue Orangeboy. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/10 "2021-01-25T20:21:04Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > IS a masterful counterstrike on Guliani’s part. I’m not sure it’s so masterful. More like bog-standard practice for a battle held as much in the court of public opinion as the court of law. “You’re suing me? ME? Oh yeah, I’ll sue you!” What IS unprecedented (at least since prior to about 6 months ago) is the degree of outright fabrication in the out-of-court statements to the press. Every lawyer talks up their case and belittles the opposition’s. Giuliani would be doing that whether he’s the plaintiff, the respondent, or both simultaneously in separate cases. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/11 "2022-07-03T20:57:57Z")
Bumped: Delaware judge rules that Dominion has pled sufficient facts to support malice against Rupert and Lachlan Fox, and thus against Fox News. > **[Fox Corp. Must Face $1.6 Billion Defamation Lawsuit That Dominion Claims Goes...](https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/fox-must-face-1-6-billion-defamation-lawsuit-that-dominion-claims-goes-to-the-top-of-the-murdoch-empire-judge-rules/)** > > Just days after advancing Dominion's lawsuit against Newsmax, a judge allowed the voting machine company at the center of pro-Trump conspiracy theories to sue Fox Corp. a $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit that allegedly goes to the top of Rupert... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/12 "2023-04-01T20:13:24Z")
Bumped. Trying to do a gift link to a NYT article on the various e-mails and texts that the Foxies were sending each other, expressing their true thoughts on Trump and the “stolen election” claims: > **[Inside the 3 Months That Could Cost Fox $1.6 Billion](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/20/technology/fox-news-dominion-texts.html?unlocked_article_code=4tNQyhsRJH75dNrYgOXo0pq2jAaYZnbQBid0CX2n0AldK7bOw-Ew5w6Vvrfh8Ys_eRNe2kLH7iLWoFkl6waH88IaC6h0_KnIHKPIB20zNTYrOH2jd7QDl9GLqSNENcLXbR-l0u0iKHE_P8TqqykXHCzUOGUuKj2JlHAQD-zkXP5LOwjH6Ra9hVA3yiyzWHAnQg1D1k8q_dtpCTLGisUvHhBVB8NAfKH2D3Y8aw-ldh5wo3XXexNKket69njfIbFuhxkV04VcPHUQZmlN10zHWbyRM9aJX37ek6ovPvVTQIxYhkQyIMUgf0IlipviBAJsYYO1ek_-8zTmfT7GUT_iqQzSudmo&smid=url-share)** > > The decision by Fox News executives in November 2020 to treat the more hard-right Newsmax as a mortal threat spawned a possibly more serious danger. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/13 "2023-04-01T20:18:12Z")
Hey, it worked! (I think) And then this one: the trial judge in the Delaware court case is allowing it to go to trial, and in the course of rejecting the motion for summary dismissal, made a lot of preliminary findings in Dominion’s favour. > **[Fox News Suffers Major Setback in Defamation Case](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/business/fox-dominion-defamation-case.html?unlocked_article_code=adTqP3SnTPfKzRRUkCJYHPrm38QlC2aP409iJT2EbwrZIEwlzTobm0CdLJoTJ4Q-siI50ioTUzjFgE1g3UGAfXfoW1HpQnchyunIpVETSrdWL62--WbDqjPY8iDJe9zZJSurgDy9WtwVz7zcFo_KoIerWHXobtLbTIXAa75fVz9GoscBQuNgwPxt5WnKbdDXVlKGlhyFl_UnEjhzSMLTWEY4qYzeoLEwCFra5PlPH7E57uWSlZIOb6_VZP3jQmGUI9nxuLIMT9EBSQOApDhtTbn6N1Hqi_PtkTR0Rc_wKA-BN0M7TG1mF7EIw7hue-jVD_l35uetqIxz5nw-c4yzPZOrBxSUI9Rl&smid=url-share)** > > A judge said the suit would go to trial, for a jury to weigh whether the network knowingly spread false claims about Dominion Voting Systems, and to determine any damages. Top picture of the article is the Dominion legal team leaving the courthouse. From their expressions, I think they feel like they’ve done a good job advancing their client’s case. No matching photo of the Fox legal team. Above the fold quote: > [@](#): > > A judge in Delaware Superior Court said the case, brought by Dominion Voting Systems, was strong enough to conclude that Fox hosts and guests had repeatedly made false claims about Dominion machines and their supposed role in a fictitious plot to steal the election from President Donald J. Trump. > > “The evidence developed in this civil proceeding,” [Judge Eric M. Davis wrote](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/summary-judgment-opinion-in-fox-dominion-case/f54475e2da851d41/full.pdf), demonstrates that it “is CRYSTAL clear that none of the statements relating to Dominion about the 2020 election are true.” > [@](#): > > Major revelations have been buried in the suit’s filings. Hundreds of pages of internal emails and messages in the weeks around the 2020 election, some of which were redacted, showed that many Fox executives and hosts did not believe the false claims of voter fraud they were broadcasting and made derogatory comments about Mr. Trump and his legal advisers. > > [Tucker Carlson](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/business/media/tucker-carlson-trump.html), the popular prime-time host, described Mr. Trump as “a demonic force, a destroyer” in a text with his producer. In a separate message to the host Laura Ingraham, Mr. Carlson said Sidney Powell, Mr. Trump’s lawyer, was lying about the fraud claims, but “our viewers are good people and they believe it.” > > The [trove of messages](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/business/media/fox-dominion-2020-election.html) also revealed the panic inside Fox News in the weeks after the election. Leaders including Suzanne Scott, the network’s chief executive, and Rupert Murdoch, the chairman of its parent company, fretted about angering viewers who felt the network had betrayed Mr. Trump when it correctly called Arizona for Joseph R. Biden Jr. > > As some of those viewers left for more right-wing channels like Newsmax in the days after the election, Ms. Scott told Mr. Murdoch in an email that she intended to “pivot but keep the audience who loves us and trusts us.” She added: “We need to make sure they know we aren’t abandoning them and still champions for them.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/14 "2023-04-01T23:43:04Z")
Ref the last sentence of your excellent quote … Kinda hard to be champions for the delusional without championing delusion yourself. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/15 "2023-04-02T00:11:01Z")
Both gift links work, thank you. Fascinating developments! Next step: Accusing the entire justice system, and the process of logic and evidence itself, of Democratic bias! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/16 "2023-04-02T00:29:15Z")
It has long been said that reality has a liberal bias. Nice to see the ~~conservatives~~ Reactionary Right finally admitting to the\is fundamental truth. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2023, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/17 "2023-04-02T04:02:42Z")
And here’s the “on the other hand” story, about what Fox has in its corner, particularly the 1st Amendment: > **[Fox’s P.R. Woes May Not Directly Translate to Legal Ones](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/12/business/media/fox-news-dominion-lawsuit-evidence.html?unlocked_article_code=vBpupkAGZO-jRNt-fFkdUC8D9gTzCaynam-y3LL4056sWNW03G3RXF6PKHE-CAX318ClqSWwAG1_xZm3u80_EUq_UnO3rMMX1b0HTfmACOolxrb1wzfC-osxKiycDjf9lwoih1yN_5NqSXiOMygqPCfLwYNK58z-MOgotDoUeSh9zGIqSD9ABfYzxjZgDdqDTWQ2_FgRQBSJ6Thf8pBn6rPU-EuJzNOkCqYX50FVwZ-znnukLtTD6No9cqZJbFmUIPMjCWxmRMYztLpeT8mlNP4x_0qGyP5WNT0_2oIZzR3kX-KnlQ9JP--tw8n5-NLQjItyNODSiZIJiDANZSThbS4gbCeWx4eBLaz91EcFXQHLEj5T&smid=url-share)** > > Some of the unflattering private messages among the network’s hosts and executives may never become evidence when Dominion Voting Systems’ defamation case against Fox News goes to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/18 "2023-04-12T17:35:49Z")
Dominion lawyers continue to have good days in court. Fox lawyers, not so much. The trial is supposed to start this week and the court is making some pre-trial rulings. On the weekend, Fox lawyers disclosed that they had just learnt that Rupert Murdoch is considered an exec officer of Fox News. They have been denying that he is part of Fox News since the case started, saying he is only an exec officer for the Fox parent company. The significance of that is that it limited the questions Dominion could ask of Rupert Murdoch in discovery. Dominion lawyers have asked the judge to make a jury instruction that Fox did not comply with all of its disclosure obligations. That would be a killer instruction. Judge is clearly not happy with Fox lawyers, saying that they now have a credibility problem with him. > [@](#): > > Judge Eric Davis commented that he too felt Fox misrepresented Murdoch’s role with Fox News. Davis, on Wednesday, openly questioned if he could trust what lawyers for Fox News and its parent company are telling him the truth. > > At one point, Davis asked: “What do I do with attorneys that aren’t straightforward with me?" > > **“I need people to tell me the truth,” Davis said moments before. “By the way, an omission is a lie.”** Dominion lawyers have asked the judge to impose personal sanctions on the Fox lawyers for misleading the court. They are also saying that there may still be material in Fox’s possession that has not been revealed to them: > [@](#): > > Dominion lawyers, later in the hearing Wednesday morning, also accused Fox of slow-walking documents part of discovery, with Dominion still receiving documents days before trial. Dominion lawyer Davida Brook c[ited a recent Daily Beast article](https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-producer-abby-grossberg-claims-there-are-secret-rudy-giuliani-recordings-about-dominion), in which a former Fox producer claimed there are secret Fox audio recordings of Rudy Guiliani and other Trump associates. It bears out Aristotle’s view that “virtue is not a characteristic. Virtue is a habit.” So too is lying, it seems. Once an institution gets into a habit of lying, it can’t easily get in the habit of telling the truth. Even when it’s corporate existence may depend on truth-telling. > **[Fox News sanctioned by Delaware judge for withholding evidence in $1.6B...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/04/12/fox-news-dominion-judge-sanction/11649428002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomwashington-topstories)** > > This comes after Tuesday's hearing where it was revealed Rupert Murdoch is a corporate officer for the cable news network. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/19 "2023-04-12T17:44:13Z")
And in other Fox news: a shareholder is suing Rupert and other Fox execs for letting the lies go on, thereby damaging the value of the shares, contrary to their fiduciary duty to shareholders: > [@](#): > > Shareholder Robert Schwarz alleged in the lawsuit filed in Delaware Chancery Court that the directors breached their duties to ensure that Fox followed its own ethical standards and avoided reputational risk, and instead sought to keep supporters of former U.S. President Donald Trump tuned in. > > “FOX knew – from the Board on down – that Fox News was reporting false and dangerous misinformation about the 2020 Presidential election, but FOX was more concerned about short-term ratings and market share than the long-term damages of its failure to tell the truth,” he said in the lawsuit, which did not say how many shares he owned. > [@](#): > > The lawsuit seeks damages for the company from Rupert Murdoch, his son and Fox Chief Executive Lachlan Murdoch, and fellow directors Chase Carey, Roland Hernandez and Jacques Nasser. It also seeks unspecified corporate governance reforms. [https://www.reuters.com/legal/fox-shareholder-sues-rupert-murdoch-other-directors-over-2020-election-coverage-2023-04-12/](https://www.reuters.com/legal/fox-shareholder-sues-rupert-murdoch-other-directors-over-2020-election-coverage-2023-04-12/) ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464/20 "2023-04-12T18:10:34Z")
That Daily beast article is a real smoking gun. If Fox is evading discovery to that extent, well, that’s Alex Jones territory. Maybe not a summary judgement but deeply, deeply prejudicial to their case. If I was the judge I’d be _pissed._ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-civil-suits-lawfare-against-trump-with-possible-political-effect/931464.md?page=2)