# The latest on the less than/fewer than front **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346 "2006-11-06T20:31:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/1 "2006-11-06T20:31:36Z")
I’m a complete maniac on the difference between “less than” and “fewer than.” I’ve been known to (ever-so-sweetly) correct people I supervise in mid-conversation when they say “less than” when it should be “fewer than.” (Anyone else notice that it’s rarely vice versa?) This caused a double-take, though: > [@organization of professional writers twicks belongs to](#): > > —If you are reading this message, you are already online; so, please click the link, below, and complete the survey. It will require fewer than 3 minutes. Okay, in this case, I’m okay with “less than three minutes,” with “time” being the implicit referent after less. Or am I only an incomplete maniac on this particular difference? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/2 "2006-11-06T20:33:02Z")
Ah, phooey – could a kind mod fix that totally effed up coding? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/3 "2006-11-06T20:59:19Z")
I would be happy with either - fewer minutes than three, or less time than three minutes. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/4 "2006-11-06T21:02:10Z")
But doesn’t “fewer than three minutes” sound bizarre to you? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/5 "2006-11-06T21:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] But doesn’t “fewer than three minutes” sound bizarre to you? [/QUOTE] Yes. I think that “fewer” should be used with things that are normally the smallest units. Less than three minutes could be “two minutes and fifty seconds” not either one or two minutes. Seconds, of course, can be divided into fractional units but they are quanta for the purposes of everyday life. Does that logic make sense? If so, one would say “less than three minutes” and “fewer than three seconds.” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/6 "2006-11-06T21:15:49Z")
I’m less than 6 feet tall, and hence less than 2 metres tall. I would feel it odd to be described as fewer than 6 feet tall, and very odd to be fewer than 2 metres tall – fewer than 2 metres would be 1 metre, and I’m certainly not that short! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/7 "2006-11-06T21:17:42Z")
It does, but it doesn’t sound incorrect, after further thought. So I give it a pass, but “less than” would have been more euphonious. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/8 "2006-11-06T21:31:36Z")
Unfortunately there is a new show about a grocery store coming out on TBS: “Ten Items or Less”. I won’t be watching on grammatical grounds. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/9 "2006-11-06T21:32:52Z")
It sounds wrong. To me, “fewer than 3 minutes” means either 2 minutes, 1 minute or zero minutes. Which might make sense if you’re talking about cell phone minutes (which are discrete), but not actual time (which is continuous). ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/10 "2006-11-06T22:12:35Z")
The fewer/less distinction is one of those pedantic prescriptivist rules that should be in the grammatical dust-bin along with never splitting an infinitive and never ending a sentence with a preposition. At most places where prescriptivists insist on using “fewer”, it is perfectly okay to use “less”, such as the stereotypical “10 items or less” at the grocery checkout line. [http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0123.html](http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0123.html) > [@](#): > > You can sometimes use less with plural nouns in the expressions no less than and or less. Thus you can say _No less than 30 of his colleagues signed the letter_ and _Give your reasons in 25 words or less_. > **[The Chicago Manual of Style, 18th Edition](https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/LessorFewer.html?old=LessorFewer01.html)** > > Find it. Write it. Cite it. The Chicago Manual of Style Online is the venerable, time-tested guide to style, usage, and grammar in an accessible online format. ¶ It is the indispensable reference for writers, editors, proofreaders, indexers,... > [@](#): > > Fowler’s points out that “less” has not always been considered incorrect with countable things (the usage began to face condemnation in the eighteenth century). It is a matter of the right idiom and not really a matter of meaning. f you were to say “there are less than five cats in this room,” no one would ever misunderstand you (unless you meant to imply that such-and-such a cat just wasn’t living up to her feline potential)— **but our idiomatic ears say “ouch” and ask for “fewer.”** [bolding mine] Pshaw, I say. My idiomatic ears do no such thing. It is the use of “fewer” where “less” could be used that makes my ears say “ouch”. [http://www.cjr.org/tools/lc/fewerless.asp](http://www.cjr.org/tools/lc/fewerless.asp) > [@](#): > > The two words were interchangeable for hundreds of years, and to an extent they still are: The choice is often a close call or doesn’t matter. But the invention of the rule in the eighteenth century has had a profound influence, especially in restricting the use of “less.” [http://www.llrx.com/columns/grammar2.htm](http://www.llrx.com/columns/grammar2.htm) > [@](#): > > This particular rule can be traced to Robert Baker, who in 1770 suggested that “No Fewer than a Hundred appears to be not only more elegant than No Less than a Hundred, but more strictly proper.” Just another made-up rule. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/11 "2006-11-07T02:30:38Z")
I vote with **scr4** , fewer minutes only makes sense where minutes are discrete-- like cell phone minutes. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/12 "2006-11-07T02:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] Just another made-up rule. [/QUOTE] All grammar rules are made-up, to one extent or another. I think the distinction between discrete units and undifferentiated masses is one worth maintaining. And I agree with those who think that “fewer than three minutes” implies either one or two minutes, though I’m not sure I’d be any more comfortable with “fewer than three seconds.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/13 "2006-11-07T04:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] I think the distinction between discrete units and undifferentiated masses is one worth maintaining. [/QUOTE] So do I. Anyone who can’t see that must have less brains than me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/14 "2006-11-07T04:49:21Z")
Fewer than three minutes and fewer than 10 items in the express lane sound equally bizarre to me. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/15 "2006-11-07T07:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] All grammar rules are made-up, to one extent or another. I think the distinction between discrete units and undifferentiated masses is one worth maintaining. [/QUOTE] If the distinction were so useful, why does the opposite have no such differentiation? less time - more time fewer items - more items ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/16 "2006-11-07T11:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] If the distinction were so useful, why does the opposite have no such differentiation? less time - more time fewer items - more items [/QUOTE] The fact that the opposite of each of them is the same doesn’t make them the same. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/17 "2006-11-07T13:14:33Z")
“There are fewer children riding the bus” is right; “There are less children riding the bus” is wrong. (To my eyes and ears, anyway) “I have fewer dollars than I had this morning” is right; “I have less dollars than I had this morning” is wrong. (To my eyes and ears, anyway) I’ve seen the word “less” used in exactly these contexts and it is worse than fingernails on a blackboard. To me, that is. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/18 "2006-11-07T13:48:09Z")
[QUOTE=LouisB] “I have less dollars than I had this morning” is wrong. (To my eyes and ears, anyway) [/QUOTE] If you are talking about dollar coins or dollar notes, that is fine. But if you sare just talking about a sum on money, then I think it’s fine. “I have less than 3 dollars” might mean that I have five 50 cent coins and four 10 cent coins. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/19 "2006-11-07T14:12:24Z")
“I have less dollars than I had this morning” -wrong “I have less money than I had this morning” -right and probably more common than referring to dollars? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346/20 "2006-11-07T14:47:28Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] The fact that the opposite of each of them is the same doesn’t make them the same. [/QUOTE] I know that. But your claim that the less/fewer distinction is useful because it serves to differentiate countable quantities from mass nouns doesn’t hold water because there is no such distinction in the opposite. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-on-the-less-than-fewer-than-front/379346.md?page=2)