# The latest Racist Fire to be fanned? Black Panther charges dropped. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957 "2010-07-08T14:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/141 "2010-07-16T04:01:46Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > No, for the third time in this thread, it is not. There’s a very good reason that one need only attempt to intimidate to violate this law–because we will NEVER know for sure who was intimidated. That’s the nature of such thuggery. We will never know if some elderly person turned around and went home, because he didn’t want any trouble. There is NO requirement that there be evidence that a single specific person was intimidated, and if we think about this for even a second, we would understand why that is a very wise portion of this legislation . You misunderstand my point. I’m not claiming a voter needs to complain or we need to prove actual intimidation. If the crime is attempting to intimidate voters, then there needs to be evidence that they were indeed attempting that. The report that some voters turned and walked away is not evidence of even the attempt. Did they talk to those folks or do anything other than just stand there? How do you prove an attempt at voter intimidation from that? There are still basic guidelines for justice here. If you expect somebody to be charged with ATTEMPTED voter intimidation then you still need some kind of decent evidence that they indeed ATTEMPTED. Get it? Maybe that’s part of the reason cases have not been prosecuted like the one in AZ. Maybe that’s part of the reason the DOJ decided not to file criminal charges and filed civil ones instead. > [@](#): > > None of the defendants showed up–they failed to respond to the lawsuit. That includes Mr. “Butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth” Democratic Committeeman, who just happened to be dressed like a Black Panther and who had the enormous bad luck to unknowingly be standing shoulder to shoulder with the guy waving the nightstick around. Would you apply your same dress code standard to a KKK robe in a different setting? ftr, if a guy was standing outside a polling place with a brown shirt on and a Nazi armband on , in his own dam neighborhood I would consider it in horrible taste but if he’s just standing there it’s not even an attempt at voter intimidation. > [@](#): > > Anyway, normal procedure is to file for a default judgment, Which should be what in a civil action. An injunction? > [@](#): > > not for the DoJ–the friggin’ steward of the voters’ rights–to file a notice for voluntary dismissal of the charges, and a weak default judgment against Mr. Nightstick. they have the right and the authority to do that, and it’s more than has been done to date by other DOJ officials right? > [@](#): > > They ignored their own protocol. Why? Do you understand that this is tantamount to the prosecuting attorney, in response to defendants not showing up for a hearing, reacting by asking the judge to toss out the charges for one and provide a weak summary judgment for the other? Yes I understand. I don’t believe they ignored their own protocol. They made a judgment call about the case. They may have won a default judgment by the defendants not showing up but they still have to decide what to do after that. You obviously disagree with their judgment call and that’s fine. So did some lawyers and some on the civil rights commission, while other lawyers and others on the civil rights commission agreed there wasn’t much of a case. Given a disagreement among professionals and the details of the case I see no incredible miscarriage of justice. > [@](#): > > My point being that your reaction seems to miss this point. The case was not weak against either of the defendants–it was made STRONGER by virtue of them blowing off the hearing. No I did not miss the point. The actual details of the case and the evidence was in no way made stronger by virtue of a default judgment victory. That victory gave them the ability to do what exactly in a civil case? File a much stronger injunction? Probably, but they get to make that call and professionals disagreed. Again, you don’t agree but some action was taken. The guy who lived in that neighborhood and was a poll watcher standing outside a polling place had the charges dismissed. OMFG, will the horrible injustice scar our society forever? The guy who actually committed the actual offenses, carrying a weapon and not controlling his racist mouth , got the injunction. That seems within the bounds of reasonable action to me. > [@](#): > > What was the DoJ’s reaction? Let’s dismiss the charges, and ask for a weak default judgment for the other. Can you see how people might react with a WTF to such a sequence of events? Oh I understand quite well considering all the inflammatory language and inaccurate reporting of the details. > [@](#): > > Can you see why it’s not an issue of evidence–the DoJ brought the lawsuit, so they apparently thought there was enough evidence, but when confronted with defendants who ignored the lawsuit,\* that\* convinced them there was insufficient evidence? The fact that the DOJ under the previous admin decided there was no criminal case is a pretty significant fact often left out of the reporting that causes that WTF reaction. The explanation of the differences between a civil and criminal case also left out. I wonder why? They won a default judgment on a civil case and then , perhaps looking at the evidence, made a judgment call about what to do with that default victory. > [@](#): > > Again, WTF? It is tolerating the intolerable, by the very group charged with guarding against such bullshit. not in my book. There is no clear evidence to me that an attempt at voter intimidation was made. Evidently the DOJ sorta agreed because they decided there was no criminal case. They didn’t win that civil case because of the evidence. They won by default. Then they made a call about what to do. Again, based on the evidence I’ve seen and read about, the judgment call they made is well within the bounds of a reasonable response. > [@](#): > > It is, again, laughable that anyone could see that video and hear the simple facts of this case and wonder if those guys were trying to intimidate anyone. Not to me and you’ve done nothing and presented nothing to change my mind. I think the guy was a jerk and made a real bad call to show up there with that baton, and make a racist remark to GOP poll watchers but I don’t think that constitutes an egregious violation of the voter rights act or a clear case of ATTEMPTED voter intimidation. . I think **elucidator** was probably pretty right on in describing what their intent was although neither you or I can know. Regardless, action was actually taken against that individual that seems to be within the bounds of reason and fitting the actual offense rather than an exaggerated or fabricated one. > [@](#): > > And, since you asked, I think the Arizona guys should have been prosecuted. That is disgusting as well. great, then the Obama DOJ is a definite improvement right? They at least did something concerning a far less egregious case. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/142 "2010-07-16T04:25:50Z")
The DOJ was not able to confirm that anybody walked away from the polls or was intimidated out of voting. There is no credible evidence for that. There wasn’t a single complaint from a voter. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/143 "2010-07-16T06:07:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The DOJ was not able to confirm that anybody walked away from the polls or was intimidated out of voting. There is no credible evidence for that. There wasn’t a single complaint from a voter. I think the point being made is there doesn’t have to be a voter complaint or actual intimidation for there to be ATTEMPTED intimidation. By itself that may be true. But even an ATTEMPTED crime requires some clear evidence to be prosecuted. In this case there doesn’t even seem to be clear evidence of the crime of ATTEMPTED voter intimidation was committed. If somone wants to insist that standing there with a weapon and making a racist comment sure looks like ATTEMPTED intimidation , then they can find solace in the fact that they did deliver an injunction on that guy. Then again he wasn’t jailed for those offenses so I guess they are DOJ pussies who care nothing for voter rights at all. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/144 "2010-07-16T19:53:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I If somone wants to insist that standing there with a weapon and making a racist comment sure looks like ATTEMPTED intimidation , then they can find solace in the fact that they did deliver an injunction on that guy. Then again he wasn’t jailed for those offenses so I guess they are DOJ pussies who care nothing for voter rights at all. Well, it’s an agency problem, which is to say, to what extent is an organization legally responsible for bad acts committed by its members? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/145 "2010-07-16T20:17:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, it’s an agency problem, which is to say, to what extent is an organization legally responsible for bad acts committed by its members? That was addressed in the reading I did. You have to establish coordination to show the member was following directives. Tere’s no indication that was the case. In fact I read somewhere that the national organization kicked that individual and that chapter out but I don’t know if that’s true. The guy with the baton is a racist. He sees whites as the enemy and won’t allow whites to join. Kinda explains his comment. THat doesn’t mean his attitude reflects the overall attitude of the organization but in order to create and maintain the reverse racism and scary black man meme, Fox will continue to equate the individuals attitude with the group. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/146 "2010-07-17T04:45:52Z")
Well, there’s the speculation in a lot of people’s minds that that might be the case, because it’s the Black Panthers, which is a racist, antiwhite organization. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/147 "2010-07-17T16:27:29Z")
And there’s speculation in a lot of people’s minds that this is a triviality exaggerated for effect. And its the New Black Panthers, a self-styled, two-bit, radical storefront operation that has received far, far more attention than its actual significance merits. Of course, it is vitally important to report on the significance of this story. According to Media Matters, Fox News has run 95 separate segments on the crucial significance of this story. [http://mediamatters.org/research/201007160038](http://mediamatters.org/research/201007160038) Thank Heavens that Fox News is keeping us informed about the major developments in this fast breaking, very very important story! Who could forget how they howled with outrage when the Bush DOJ downgraded this to a civil matter! Why, you would almost think this was a minor incident quickly resolved! Come to think of it, I don’t actually recall any such howls of outrage from Fox. But then I don’t pay them that much attention, perhaps some of our more informed posters can point out to me how upset they were that this crucial, very very important crime was not more vigorously prosecuted by BushCo. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/148 "2010-07-17T16:55:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, there’s the speculation in a lot of people’s minds that that might be the case, because it’s the Black Panthers, which is a racist, antiwhite organization. and what’s the responsible way for professionals such as lawyers and so called journalists to handle specualtion not backed by any substantail evidence? It’s certainly not to hurl unfounded accusations on a daily basis. OTOH, it’s not hard to imagine the motives behind real actions like distortion of the facts, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/149 "2010-07-17T17:00:37Z")
Obviously, if there’s no evidence, then the Justice Department can’t do anything about it. It’s just hard for me to believe that there isn’t any evidence; that this guy went to the polling place with a weapon on his own, without anyone’s knowledge or approval. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/150 "2010-07-17T18:33:42Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and what’s the responsible way for professionals such as lawyers and so called journalists to handle specualtion not backed by any substantail evidence? It’s certainly not to hurl unfounded accusations on a daily basis. That’s not what I learned from reading the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/151 "2010-07-17T19:01:14Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Obviously, if there’s no evidence, then the Justice Department can’t do anything about it. It’s just hard for me to believe that there isn’t any evidence; that this guy went to the polling place with a weapon on his own, without anyone’s knowledge or approval. If anyone believes that the Black Panthers represent a legitimate threat then by all means they should keep an eye on them, create a file or whatever, but look for real evidence rather than make shit up for some political agenda. I find it very surprising that you can’t imagine this guy {or any member of any group in general} might have done this on his own without group direction or approval. Groups are made up of people with different personality types and sometimes people get to be a member and do things the overall group doesn’t appraove of. Is that so hard to believe? A church member gets drunk at the church picnic. His church must have approved? A cop loses his cool and smacks someone around. His Precinct must have known and approved? A member of the Black Panthers brings a baton to a polling place. Well that’s different! Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/152 "2010-07-17T19:04:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s not what I learned from reading the Dope. and, now finally, you have learned it. Better late than never , and glad I could help. No charge. All part of the FI service. {when are they sending me my badge?} ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/153 "2010-07-17T19:58:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s just hard for me to believe that there isn’t any evidence; that this guy went to the polling place with a weapon on his own, without anyone’s knowledge or approval. [OT]I’m definitely going to have to bookmark this one for when the more conservative types here whine and moan about how the more violent, racist and batshit elements of the tea party movement are not stand-ins for the movement’s (and Republican) core cause, motivation and purpose.[/OT] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/154 "2010-07-17T20:21:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and, now finally, you have learned it. Better late than never , and glad I could help. No charge. All part of the FI service. > > {when are they sending me my badge?} Badges? Badges? We don’t need no _steeenking_ badges! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/155 "2010-07-17T20:26:24Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > [OT]I’m definitely going to have to bookmark this one for when the more conservative types here whine and moan about how the more violent, racist and batshit elements of the tea party movement are not stand-ins for the movement’s (and Republican) core cause, motivation and purpose.[/OT] In the case of the Tea Party, or, more correctly, the various and sundry Tea Parties…there is a grain of truth, they have no hierarchy, no central set of core beliefs, they have all the organization of the Anarchist/Hippy Alliance. Seniors Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything (S.W.I.N.E.). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/156 "2010-07-17T20:59:58Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > A church member gets drunk at the church picnic. His church must have approved? A cop loses his cool and smacks someone around. His Precinct must have known and approved? > > A member of the Black Panthers brings a baton to a polling place. > Well that’s different! > Why is that? Because the Black Panthers is a militant racist organization. If the church advocates drunkenness and the precinct supports cops being violent, I’d suspect official involvement in those two situations too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/157 "2010-07-17T21:07:25Z")
Do the panthers publicly advocate voter intimidation, violence or bringing sticks to voting sites? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/158 "2010-07-17T21:09:42Z")
[OT]I guess the parallel scenario I’m trying to invoke here is, even if the Tea Party definitely has no central command and the Black Panthers organization definitely has one, why is it so uncommonly easy to assume there must have been something the BP leadership said or ordered to cause the action in Philadelphia. In apposition, it must be \*just as easy \*for the TPers to do something to cause something not to happen, as in, when participants show up with racist or violent signs or start with racist, violent or factually inaccurate chants, why not deny entrance to the event or call them out _right then and there_? But when Mark Williams finds it so easy to engage in the kind of insulting riff he did in response to the recent NAACP resolution calling for more forceful action against the more outlier elements of the TP’s participants, I suppose there will always be a schism between who is responsible for making clear what is accepted behavior among those who carry a group’s banner. In the case of the OP and the Black Panthers, an investigation has shown there was clearly no connection between what the guy at the polling station did and the leadership of the BPs. The TPers would do just as well to make such distinctions clearer on a day-to-day basis too.[/OT] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/159 "2010-07-17T21:43:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do the panthers publicly advocate voter intimidation, violence or bringing sticks to voting sites? The New Black Panther Party does advocate violence, and its leaders have advocated bringing weapons to public meetings before, if not voting sites. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957/160 "2010-07-17T22:05:11Z")
Do you mean public meetings as in meetings that are open to the public, or meetings of civic government nature? Look: the New Black Panthers are full of shit in way numberless to man. This is political theater. The lie they are telling is not that white people are to be intimidated from voting, but that black people need protection from white intimidation. Like I said, they are trying to steal the mojo of the original Black Panther Party, and that sort of public demonstration of resistance to white intimidation was what made them famous. Did they have a point? Yes, they did, but thank Og, that time is past. Does the Newbie Black Pussy Party have such a point? No, they don’t, which is why they are a trivial storefront bunch of wannabes of no significance whatsoever, save for the significance you have lent them. Congratulations, you are doing your level best to make them important. Without you, they would have been relegated to a passing mention on the local news and a police report. Which is more than they deserve in the first instance. Thanks to Fox Gnaws, they will have a doubling or tripling of dues paying members, no more than half of whom will be undercover agents. Hmmm. Has anyone alerted that O’Keefe fellow? Right up his alley, it would seem to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latest-racist-fire-to-be-fanned-black-panther-charges-dropped/545957.md?page=9)