# The Latter Day Saint Movement and Plates **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539 "2008-04-16T02:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/1 "2008-04-16T02:03:19Z")
Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, claimed to have received the Golden Plates, which revealed to him the Book of Mormon. Later, James Strang, a follower of Smith’s, claimed to have received the Voree Plates, which he put forth as the Book of the Law of the Lord. My question: Did any other members of the Latter Day Saint movement claim to have found or received Plates (or similar revealed relics)? And if so, did they break off to form their own denominations as Strang did? Did they publish them? (I hope I worded this properly, with appropriate terminology and hyphens and capitals or lack of them! I’m looking for facts, not debates about which sects got it right or wrong. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/2 "2008-04-16T11:54:47Z")
Well, there was the case of the Kinderhook Plates, which were ultimately revealed as a forgery. As the Wikipedia article shows, some say that Joseph Smioth accepted these as the real thing, and others that the acceptance comes not from Smith, but from the journal of William Clayton: > **[Kinderhook plates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates)** > > The Kinderhook plates are a set of six small, bell-shaped pieces of brass with unusual engravings, created as a hoax in 1843, surreptitiously buried and then dug up at an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois, United States. > The plates were forged by three men from Kinderhook as a prank on the local Latter Day Saint community. According to Latter Day Saint belief, the Book of Mormon is a record of the ancient Judeo-Semitic inhabitants of the Americas, originally translated by the founder of the... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/3 "2008-04-16T12:22:13Z")
By the way, the “Anthon Transcript” with copies of characters from the Book of Mormon plates is in the keeping of the Refomed LDS Church. The existing transcript, however, doesn’t match the description given ogf it by either Anthon or Harris. When Hoffman produced his forged version of it, one of the clever touches was that it DID rsemble Anthon’s description, and in such a way that it made the RLDS version look like a bad copy of the forgery. > **[Reformed Egyptian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian)** > > The Book of Mormon, a work of scripture of the Latter Day Saint movement, describes itself as having a portion originally written in reformed Egyptian characters on plates of metal or "ore" by prophets living in the Western Hemisphere from perhaps as early as the 6th century BC until as late as the 5th century AD. Joseph Smith, the movement's founder, published the Book of Mormon in 1830 as a translation of these golden plates. Smith said that after he finished the translation, he returned Schol... ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/4 "2008-04-16T13:02:11Z")
Thanks, **Cal**. That’s an interesting read. But so far it still looks like that the only one of the other [sects in the LDS movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement) that claimed to have other plates giving them divine revelation was the Strangite sect. ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/5 "2008-04-16T17:19:33Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Thanks, **Cal**. That’s an interesting read. But so far it still looks like that the only one of the other [sects in the LDS movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement) that claimed to have other plates giving them divine revelation was the Strangite sect. [/QUOTE] Actually, there is this new guy from England, Matthew Gill, who claims to have some plate-derived scriptures called “The Book of Jeraneck”. His blog is [Here.](http://thelatterdaychurchofchrist.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/6 "2008-04-16T18:10:20Z")
The “Golden Plates” are probably the most difficult to explain (for LDS apologists). Why and how they were found is a mystery-Joe Smith could have received the revelations direct. in any case, nothing about the story adds up: -the plates were not seen by anyone except Smith -none of the “reformed egyptian” characters could be verified 9as egyptian) by anyone -the plates were removed, as soon as Smith “translated” them Surely, a civilization which numbered over 50 million inhabitants, would have left behind some other writings? I mean, candy wrappers, draft notices, obituaries, etc.-where is it? This professor Anthon (Columbia University): was he an expert in any semitic languages? his account of the “reformed egyptian” “cracters” is most instructive:he thought it was a hoax. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/7 "2008-04-16T18:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The “Golden Plates” are probably the most difficult to explain (for LDS apologists). Why and how they were found is a mystery-Joe Smith could have received the revelations direct. in any case, nothing about the story adds up: > -the plates were not seen by anyone except Smith > -none of the “reformed egyptian” characters could be verified 9as egyptian) by anyone > -the plates were removed, as soon as Smith “translated” them > Surely, a civilization which numbered over 50 million inhabitants, would have left behind some other writings? I mean, candy wrappers, draft notices, obituaries, etc.-where is it? > This professor Anthon (Columbia University): was he an expert in any semitic languages? his account of the “reformed egyptian” “cracters” is most instructive:he thought it was a hoax. Technically, it’s not correct to say that no one else saw the plates. Every Book of Mormon opens with the Testimony of Three Witnesses: > [@](#): > > Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, which came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that **we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon** ; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Bolding mine > **[Three Witnesses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses)** > > The Three Witnesses is the collective name for three men—Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris—in the early Latter Day Saint movement who stated that an angel showed them the golden plates from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon. They also stated that they heard God's voice, informing them that the book had been translated by divine power. > Their joint statement, along with the Eight Witnesses statement, has appeared in every edition of the Book of Mormon since its publ... Not to mention the Testimony of Eight Witnesses , also in each edition: > [@](#): > > Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Author and Proprietor of this work, **has shewn unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship**. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shewn unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it. > **[Eight Witnesses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses)** > > The Eight Witnesses were one of the two groups of witnesses who made statements stating that they had seen the golden plates which Joseph Smith said was his source material for the Book of Mormon. An earlier group of witnesses who said they had seen the plates were called the Three Witnesses. > The Testimony of Eight Witnesses was first published at the end of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and has been printed in nearly every edition since, although most subsequent editions moved the st... I’m not LDS myself, and have issues with Mormon claims, but they certainly have these two testimonies on their side. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/8 "2008-04-17T00:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] The “Golden Plates” are probably the most difficult to explain (for LDS apologists). Why and how they were found is a mystery-Joe Smith could have received the revelations direct. in any case, nothing about the story adds up: -the plates were not seen by anyone except Smith -none of the “reformed egyptian” characters could be verified 9as egyptian) by anyone -the plates were removed, as soon as Smith “translated” them [/quote] Either it’s a miracle, or it’s not. There isn’t a lot of middle ground. Take your pick: silly hoax or actual truth. If Joseph Smith really had any plates, the nitpicking isn’t very important. If he didn’t, then–it isn’t very important. > [@](#): > > Surely, a civilization which numbered over 50 million inhabitants, would have left behind some other writings? I mean, candy wrappers, draft notices, obituaries, etc.-where is it? IIRC somewhere in the Book of Mormon it says that they didn’t use the writing system for anything but the records they kept, and not many of them knew how to do it. So it was a writing system used only for specific religious purposes. (It wasn’t Egyptian–it was a derivative of Hebrew that used a derivative of some form of Egyptian writing for the characters.) There are some essays and so on about this–if you’re really interested, PM me and I’ll do some research and find something for you to read. But since we don’t actually have a specific location for the civilizations in question (somewhere in Central America, probably), it’s pretty hard to pin it down anyhow. What would you do if you dug up a city filled with such inscriptions? From the LDS POV, it’s a bit irrelevant, though interesting. > [@](#): > > This professor Anthon (Columbia University): was he an expert in any semitic languages? his account of the “reformed egyptian” “cracters” is most instructive:he thought it was a hoax. I’ve read a bit about him, but don’t recall it now. Let me know if you’re really interested, and I’ll go digging. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/9 "2008-04-17T01:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Well, there was the case of the Kinderhook Plates, which were ultimately revealed as a forgery. [/QUOTE] As opposed to the completely imaginary/fabricated original plates? [QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] But so far it still looks like that the only one of the other sects in the LDS movement that claimed to have other plates giving them divine revelation was the Strangite sect. [/QUOTE] Sounds like a case of “my imaginary plates can beat up your imaginary plates.” Sorry… but when an 18 year old kid wandering in the desert starts seeing visions, my first (and second and third and fourth) response is, “The kid’s crazy.” As opposed to, “Let’s drop everything and start a new religion based on the freakazoid.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/10 "2008-04-17T01:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=filmyak] As opposed to the completely imaginary/fabricated original plates? Sounds like a case of “my imaginary plates can beat up your imaginary plates.” Sorry… but when an 18 year old kid wandering in the desert starts seeing visions, my first (and second and third and fourth) response is, “The kid’s crazy.” As opposed to, “Let’s drop everything and start a new religion based on the freakazoid.” :smack: [/QUOTE] I have my own opinions about whether such findings actually represent divine revelations (and if you’ve read my postings in GD in the past on religious topics, you can probably guess what those opinions are) but I’ve refrained from sharing those here in this GQ thread. Why? Because I am seeking some specific factual information about the LDS movement and plates, and whether or not said plates are truly ‘divine’ or not doesn’t enter into the answer. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/11 "2008-04-17T05:21:58Z")
Consecutive thread titles to my own personal amusement… The Latter Day Saints Movement and Plates Two Weird Questions About Poopin’ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/12 "2008-04-17T06:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=filmyak] Sorry… but when an 18 year old kid wandering in the desert starts seeing visions, my first (and second and third and fourth) response is, “The kid’s crazy.” As opposed to, “Let’s drop everything and start a new religion based on the freakazoid.” :smack: [/QUOTE] Who are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/13 "2008-04-17T12:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > : > > Originally Posted by CalMeacham > > Well, there was the case of the Kinderhook Plates, which were ultimately revealed as a forgery. > > As opposed to the completely imaginary/fabricated original plates? Confruntational? Nahhhh! One of the Kinderhook Plates was found again several decades ago and subjected to careful analysis that proved it fraudulent. Joseph Smith’s plates were never subjected to any outside testing and, as far as I know, no one but him and the witnesses cited above ever claimed to have seen them. > [@](#): > > : > Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan > But so far it still looks like that the only one of the other sects in the LDS movement that claimed to have other plates giving them divine revelation was the Strangite sect. > [@](#): > > Sounds like a case of “my imaginary plates can beat up your imaginary plates.” > > Sorry… but when an 18 year old kid wandering in the desert starts seeing visions, my first (and second and third and fourth) response is, “The kid’s crazy.” As opposed to, “Let’s drop everything and start a new religion based on the freakazoid.” Odd statement. Joseph Smith lived in rural Manchester, New York when he had his visions and said he found the plates. It’s about as far from a desert as you can imagine (I don’t think Smith ever saw a desert in his life – he started out in Vermont and worked his way west to Missouri and Illinois). People DID say he was crazy. Say or believe what you will about him, he did work at his cause – people didn’t just drop everything and start a new religion. Read one of the biographies about him. Fawn Brodie’s **No Man Knows my History** is one by a non-believing non-Mormon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/14 "2008-04-17T15:32:49Z")
The true Word, of course, is to be found only in the [Voynich Manuscript.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/15 "2008-04-17T15:50:20Z")
was a professor at Columbia College (now Columbia University). He was shown the famouns transcription (of the “book of Mormon”, written in the “reformed egyptian caracters”-as transcribed by Josph Smith. As far as i can tell, Prof. Anthon was not a linguist-he was a classical scholar, and fluent in ancient latin and greek. I have no indication that Anthon knew how to read ancient hebrew (or any semitic language). But was he right to denounce the sheet of writing (that he was shown) as gibberish? I ould say so-none of these symbols bears resemblance to any known language. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/16 "2008-04-17T16:05:59Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] was a professor at Columbia College (now Columbia University). He was shown the famouns transcription (of the “book of Mormon”, written in the “reformed egyptian caracters”-as transcribed by Josph Smith. As far as i can tell, Prof. Anthon was not a linguist-he was a classical scholar, and fluent in ancient latin and greek. I have no indication that Anthon knew how to read ancient hebrew (or any semitic language). But was he right to denounce the sheet of writing (that he was shown) as gibberish? I ould say so-none of these symbols bears resemblance to any known language. [/QUOTE] That is **not** the point of this thread. Those wanting to debate whether or not there is any merit to the LDS Movement claims about divine revelation via unearthed plates are invited to take said discussion to GD where it belongs. And if you do start such a discussion in GD, perhaps you could clarify what do you mean by “ould”, anyway? Would? Could? Should? Or did you mis-spell “loud”? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/17 "2008-04-17T17:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Professor Charles Anthon LL.D > > * * * > > was a professor at Columbia College (now Columbia University). He was shown the famouns transcription (of the “book of Mormon”, written in the “reformed egyptian caracters”-as transcribed by Josph Smith. > As far as i can tell, Prof. Anthon was not a linguist-he was a classical scholar, and fluent in ancient latin and greek. I have no indication that Anthon knew how to read ancient hebrew (or any semitic language). > But was he right to denounce the sheet of writing (that he was shown) as gibberish? I ould say so-none of these symbols bears resemblance to any known language. The script was supposed to be “reformed Egyptian”. At the time, Young hadn’t gotten very far in his published work on hieroglyphics, and Champollion hadn’t published (or perhaps had just published) his work on hieroglyphics. In any event, someone at Columbia would not have been in a position to evaluate any translation of hieroglyphics one way or the other at that time. In any event, QtM, as originator of this thread has rightly pointed out that this is not supposed to be on proving or disproving the truth of events from the origin of the Mormon Church. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/18 "2008-04-17T17:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] The script was supposed to be “reformed Egyptian”. At the time, Young hadn’t gotten very far in his published work on hieroglyphics, and Champollion hadn’t published (or perhaps had just published) his work on hieroglyphics. In any event, someone at Columbia would not have been in a position to evaluate any translation of hieroglyphics one way or the other at that time. In any event, QtM, as originator of this thread has rightly pointed out that this is not supposed to be on proving or disproving the truth of events from the origin of the Mormon Church. [/QUOTE] Consider the impact of ancient egyptian artifacts turning up in upstate NY. This professor Anthon would have been eager to confirm the find-had he any belief that the artifacts were geniune, he probably would have travelled to the site. The fact that such a (potentially momentous) discovery was ignored (by an extremely capable classical scholar (and professor at Columbia)), indicates that most likely, these “plates” did not exist-except in the minds of a few people. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-latter-day-saint-movement-and-plates/445539/19 "2008-04-17T18:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Consider the impact of ancient egyptian artifacts turning up in upstate NY. This professor Anthon would have been eager to confirm the find-had he any belief that the artifacts were geniune, he probably would have travelled to the site. > The fact that such a (potentially momentous) discovery was ignored (by an extremely capable classical scholar (and professor at Columbia)), indicates that most likely, these “plates” did not exist-except in the minds of a few people. The Characters Martin Harris brought didn’t look at all like hieroglyphic or hieratic – they didn’t look like anything seen anywhere else. (I don’t think even LDS boosters have ever come up with anything else that has Book of Mormon characters on it, aside from the Anthon Transcript and an old ad for the BoM) So Anthon wouldn’t have gone rushing anywhere. He wouldn’t have thought that the figures brought to him suggested an Egyptian-American connection. my point is that there’s no way he could have said either that the characters were translated correctly or that they were translated incorrectly. And again, FWIW, I’m not LDS, and do not myself think that the characters Harris showed Anthon were a sample of ancient writing.