# The law DOES require them to separate children from their families **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339 "2018-06-18T21:15:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/41 "2018-06-19T03:26:45Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Generally, I support the honesty of the media, and in a sense they are not lying on this topic, but for the most part they are. > > 1. The Trump administration does not have to PROSECUTE people who have crossed into the country illegally as criminals. This is true, and this is what the media is trying to make you believe the Trump administration is saying. But it is not what the Trump administration has claimed. > 2. But HAVING decided to prosecute you for criminal trespass into the country, the law DOES force the government to separate children from their families because **children aren’t allowed to be put into jails**. This is what the Trump administration is referring to when they say that they’re forced to separate the children out. > 3. These laws were not pushed through by Liberals. One law mandating that [children not be allowed into jails](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Rape_Elimination_Act_of_2003) was backed by Jeff Sessions, for example. But putting them in tents and cages and forcing them to sleep on floors and yelling at them if they play is okay, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/42 "2018-06-19T10:14:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’m not arguing that the administration is in the right nor that they are being honest either. I am, as said, simply pointing out that the media is being deliberately and patently misleading in their statements and in the laws they cite. Your argument is as-yet unsupported and your attempt at what-aboutism is failing to distract from the actual harm being done by Trump policies. If anything about this caught Trump “off-guard”, it may be that he didn’t expect such a negative reaction from Americans capable of, y’know, empathy. It wouldn’t surprise me if Trump finds this to be a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/43 "2018-06-19T10:44:32Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > But putting them in tents and cages and forcing them to sleep on floors and yelling at them if they play is okay, huh? not okay…but I was absolutely astounded to learn that this has been going on for years, including under Obama’s watch. Take a look at these photos of children in cages, back in 2014: > **[Obama officials rushed to explain photos from 2014 that went viral showing...](https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5)** > > Several 2014 photos of detained immigrant children resurfaced and went viral in May. Former Obama administration officials tried to explain the context behind the photos, which appeared to show migrant kids locked up in cages. Recent photos of Trump... ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/44 "2018-06-19T11:26:24Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Generally, I support the honesty of the media, and in a sense they are not lying on this topic, but for the most part they are. @ OP — it appears to me that your entire thread, while possibly having some validity in a trite legalistic sense, is very misleading. Please answer the following True/False questions: (1) T/F: The immigration authority could house entire families in Family Detention Centers, as it has in the past. (2) T/F: The Obama Administration coped with unwanted refugees without generally separating children from their parents. (3) T/F: Mainstream media provides legal details of these cases for readers with the time to explore details and scrutinize legal nuances. (4) T/F: Headlines and brief introductory paragraphs are of necessity, brief. Detailed discussion of legal nuances are provided in the … detailed discussions. (5) T/F: It would be trivial for Trump and his henchman to treat refugees humanely, as the Obama Administration did. His failure to do so is deliberate. (6) T/F: When the plain facts are so simple it would only serve the interests of the evil-doers to require obfuscatory justifications every time the evil is mentioned. I’m no expert on these matters and I hope others will also answer these questions to help me judge whether OP’s answers, if he chooses to offer any, are correct. I _think_ the answers are T, T, T, T, T, T. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/45 "2018-06-19T11:57:22Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > not okay…but I was absolutely astounded to learn that this has been going on for years, including under Obama’s watch. > > Take a look at these photos of children in cages, back in 2014: > [Obama Officials Explain Viral Photos of Immigrant Children in Cages](http://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5) Did you read the article you linked? Because it is not the same thing as is made clear in the article. Here is the tl;dr version: In 2014 there was a huge spike in _unaccompanied minors_ crossing the border and there simply were not enough shelters to house them all. The government set about reuniting them with the closest relatives they could find, 80% of the time their parents. Trump is not trying to deal with unaccompanied minors and reunite them with their parents. He is taking accompanied minors and separating them from their parents. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/46 "2018-06-19T12:05:54Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The law does not require the authorities to put someone in jail when they decide to prosecute them. Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side does not support enforcing immigration laws? If I drive drunk, it is technically true that the authorities do not have to prosecute me. It is also technically true that they do not have to take me to jail if they do prosecute me. But I think that we would agree that the local authorities would not be doing their jobs if they refused to prosecute wholesale violations of the law. It is the President’s job to enforce the laws. It says so right in the Constitution. Why shouldn’t he enforce this law? Because you don’t like the law? Because it separates children from their families? Well, that is very sad, but it is no different than a parent violating any other law. If I am in county jail, the kids aren’t there with me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/47 "2018-06-19T12:09:37Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side does not support enforcing immigration laws? > > If I drive drunk, it is technically true that the authorities do not have to prosecute me. It is also technically true that they do not have to take me to jail if they do prosecute me. But I think that we would agree that the local authorities would not be doing their jobs if they refused to prosecute wholesale violations of the law. This is bullshit. “My side” is the same side as our nation’s side for the past half-century or more. We’ve decided that immigration laws should be enforced to the extent that they can be WITHOUT VIOLATING HUMAN RIGHTS. Our nation has treated undocumented immigration as a violation of the law, but as a very minor one, that doesn’t require a tremendous outlay of resources to address. Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side supports enforcing immigration laws even when doing so comprises a violation of human rights? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/48 "2018-06-19T12:13:00Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side does not support enforcing immigration laws? The same side that got called “Deporter in Chief?” That side? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/49 "2018-06-19T12:24:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is bullshit. “My side” is the same side as our nation’s side for the past half-century or more. We’ve decided that immigration laws should be enforced to the extent that they can be WITHOUT VIOLATING HUMAN RIGHTS. Our nation has treated undocumented immigration as a violation of the law, but as a very minor one, that doesn’t require a tremendous outlay of resources to address. > > Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side supports enforcing immigration laws even when doing so comprises a violation of human rights? How is incarceration a violation of human rights? You are suspected of breaking the law, you go to jail and the kids don’t go with you. Since when do citizens of one country have a right to enter another country? Again, let me roll through Canadian customs at the Rainbow Bridge with my daughter in the car and see if I don’t end up separated from her while I am processed. This is not some new principle of law that just started last month. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/50 "2018-06-19T12:25:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is incarceration a violation of human rights? Yeah, I don’t think we’re gonna play this game. Question asked and answered in other thread; meanwhile you’re not answering questions over there. Edit: y’know what, I can spare the 15 seconds to Google for you. [Here you go](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/world/americas/us-un-migrant-children-families.html), but I’m gonna start charging for my Googling services. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/51 "2018-06-19T12:28:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side does not support enforcing immigration laws? The liberal side did enforce immigration law. Obama deported more people than any other president. Is that not enforcing the law in your view? > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the “Deporter in Chief.” > > Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who “self-deported” or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP). > > How does he compare to other presidents? > According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president’s administration in history. > > In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century. > > SOURCE: [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661) Also, for illegal immigrants crossing the border for the first time the US prosecuted them as a misdemeanor crime (which among other things did not require prison and did not separate them from their kids). Can you tell us which part of the law, as specified by congress, this did not uphold? So what part of immigration law was not being enforced under liberals? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/52 "2018-06-19T12:30:45Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, let me roll through Canadian customs at the Rainbow Bridge with my daughter in the car and see if I don’t end up separated from her while I am processed. This is not some new principle of law that just started last month. This is a new US policy and it did start last month. Do you think this has been happening all along, nothing has changed? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/53 "2018-06-19T16:23:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The liberal side did enforce immigration law. Obama deported more people than any other president. Is that not enforcing the law in your view? > > Also, for illegal immigrants crossing the border for the first time the US prosecuted them as a misdemeanor crime (which among other things did not require prison and did not separate them from their kids). Can you tell us which part of the law, as specified by congress, this did not uphold? > > So what part of immigration law was not being enforced under liberals? Because it IS a misdemeanor crime and should be prosecuted as such. If I get a DUI in another state, should they just send me back to my home state? What if I had a child with me in the car? No. It is a crime. Not charging these crimes is not taking care that the law be faithfully executed. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/54 "2018-06-19T16:27:45Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Because it IS a misdemeanor crime and should be prosecuted as such. If I get a DUI in another state, should they just send me back to my home state? What if I had a child with me in the car? No. It is a crime. Not charging these crimes is not taking care that the law be faithfully executed. This is a silly argument. In no area of law do we charge everyone with a misdemeanor charge regardless of the circumstances or consequences. If 100% charging is your bar for faithful execution of the law, then almost no law is being faithfully executed. You are also persistently ignoring the evidence that CBP is shunting asylum-seekers away from ports of entry. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/55 "2018-06-19T16:35:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is a silly argument. In no area of law do we charge everyone with a misdemeanor charge regardless of the circumstances or consequences. If 100% charging is your bar for faithful execution of the law, then almost no law is being faithfully executed. > > You are also persistently ignoring the evidence that CBP is shunting asylum-seekers away from ports of entry. I understand discretion based upon circumstances. But if we NEVER charge the crime, then that is ignoring a valid law. If the CBP is denying asylum-seekers access to these ports, then that is a different matter that needs to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/56 "2018-06-19T17:18:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is incarceration a violation of human rights? You are suspected of breaking the law, you go to jail and the kids don’t go with you. Since when do citizens of one country have a right to enter another country? > > Again, let me roll through Canadian customs at the Rainbow Bridge with my daughter in the car and see if I don’t end up separated from her while I am processed. This is not some new principle of law that just started last month. Separation of parents from children is not being done while being processed, as you very well know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/57 "2018-06-19T17:49:55Z")
Probably not. Such certainty is seldom based on actual knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/58 "2018-06-19T18:07:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I understand discretion based upon circumstances. But if we NEVER charge the crime, then that is ignoring a valid law. We could charge the crime by summons, rather than going forward with custodial arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/59 "2018-06-19T18:15:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I understand discretion based upon circumstances. But if we NEVER charge the crime, then that is ignoring a valid law. > > If the CBP is denying asylum-seekers access to these ports, then that is a different matter that needs to be addressed. I JUST heard a reporter that was saying that Border Patrol is setting up at border bridges and ports of entry and are turning away asylum seekers that don’t have documents. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/60 "2018-06-19T18:24:36Z")
Gonna need some sort of permanent identification number for those kids. Tattoos, maybe? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=4)