# The law DOES require them to separate children from their families **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339 "2018-06-18T21:15:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/61 "2018-06-19T18:25:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I understand discretion based upon circumstances. But if we NEVER charge the crime, then that is ignoring a valid law. > > If the CBP is denying asylum-seekers access to these ports, then that is a different matter that needs to be addressed. Unless there is some other reason for pulling you over (such as driving while black), speeding at 57 MPH in a 55 MPH zone is never enforced. Does that mean that police officers should be chastized for ignoring the law? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/62 "2018-06-19T18:38:06Z")
It’s not a policy; it’s the law. They’re just following the law. They have no choice. Hands are tied. Incapable of doing otherwise. Don’t like it? Change the law. Anyone doubt for a second that if Democrats were to throw up their hands and say “fine, we’ll fund your goddamned wall if you stop this shit,” the ironclad obligation to follow the law would mysteriously vanish? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/63 "2018-06-19T18:49:13Z")
It’s a heck of a law. Interpreted one way for 10 years under 3 administrations, but now suddenly we have tent encampments and cages. Odd timing, isn’t it? If only there were something that Democrats could offer to help the situation. It’s not the checkpoints that are the problem either, is it? Noooo, it’s out in the middle of nowhere. You know what would really help? A wall. The one that Mexico is going to pay for. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/64 "2018-06-19T18:54:22Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I JUST heard a reporter that was saying that Border Patrol is setting up at border bridges and ports of entry and are turning away asylum seekers that don’t have documents. I was listening to an NPR report last week where they interviewed asylum seekers who said the CBP were standing on the only bridge in to the border station and they were turning away people (this is where they are supposed to legally enter and request asylum). If they are turned away on the bridge in there is no need to do paperwork or go through any formal process. One border patrol agent told the reporter that, despite not being in the US, he had to stop recording or they would 100% stop processing people. A camp of sorts has sprung up near the border filled with people awaiting a chance to be let in. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/65 "2018-06-19T19:20:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > One border patrol agent told the reporter that, despite not being in the US, he had to stop recording or they would 100% stop processing people. This was probably a bad year for the NFL to schedule those “We Love the Border Patrol!” events all across the country. Man, all those white billionaires who run the league just keep blowing it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/66 "2018-06-19T19:36:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > They are actively and intentionally traumatizing children to extort votes from democrats on a heartless immigration policy. They expect the democrats are too thin skinned to long tolerate the abuse of children, their compassion making them weak and easy to exploit. > > The descent continues. That’s pretty much how I see it, too. Thanks for typing it up, **elbows** ; well done. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/67 "2018-06-19T19:48:04Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It’s not a policy; it’s the law. They’re just following the law. They have no choice. Hands are tied. Incapable of doing otherwise. Don’t like it? Change the law. Hey, pal, if you can’t do the time, don’t be brought along by your parents on the misdemeanour that harms absolutely nobody ! Very simple. ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/68 "2018-06-19T20:07:23Z")
There is no more “The Media” that there is “The Grocery Store.” If you buy stale cereal at your local market, do you blame the entire food industry for your stale cereal and claim that they are all in cahoots with each other to deprive you of fresh cerial? No. Of course not. That would be stupid. You take your concerns to that particular outlet and take care of the issue there. Some people will buy actual Lobster and enjoy it. Some will buy Lobster, although it is actually a bag with “Cheetos” scratched off and “Lobster” written in Crayon and wonder why they got ripped off. Some will buy Lobster, although it is actually a bag with “Cheetos” scratched off and “Lobster” written in Crayon and, with a big crusty orange grin, give a thumbs up and say “I Love Lobster!” Such is life but, sadly, Cheeto-Lobster lovers still vote. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/69 "2018-06-19T20:08:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, let me roll through Canadian customs at the Rainbow Bridge with my daughter in the car and see if I don’t end up separated from her while I am processed. This is not some new principle of law that just started last month. Is this what you think will happen if you try to enter Canada? > [@](#): > > NBC’s Pete Williams speaks about a migrant Guatemalan mother who filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration to get her seven-year-old son back after she was detained at border patrol crossing the U.S. border. After being released from custody on June 15th she awaits her immigration hearing but still has not been given any information on her son’s location or how she will get him back. She was separated from her child some time around May, 20 and has talked to him once since then. At present she has no idea where he is. Her crime is going to a port of entry with her son and requesting asylum. We can enforce the law without doing it in what seems like the worst way possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/70 "2018-06-19T20:53:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Can we just be intellectually honest and say that your side does not support enforcing immigration laws? The part of your question after the “and” doesn’t suggest a good-faith effort on your part to fulfill the part of your question before the “and”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/71 "2018-06-19T22:10:52Z")
That “we” part seems a mite shaky too. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/72 "2018-06-19T22:31:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We could charge the crime by summons, rather than going forward with custodial arrest. Agreed. However, most U.S. citizens are not afforded such a courtesy when charged with misdemeanor crimes. Further, the nature of this crime suggests that the defendant will be unlikely to show up for trial. If it were not for the politically charged nature of this issue, it would be undisputed that there is probable cause to believe these individuals are committing misdemeanor crimes, and that no bond or a high bond is appropriate instead of a summons. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/73 "2018-06-19T22:34:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Agreed. However, most U.S. citizens are not afforded such a courtesy when charged with misdemeanor crimes. Cite? I don’t believe this is accurate. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Further, the nature of this crime suggests that the defendant will be unlikely to show up for trial. Hogwash. > [@UltraVires](#): > > If it were not for the politically charged nature of this issue, it would be undisputed that there is probable cause to believe these individuals are committing misdemeanor crimes, and that no bond or a high bond is appropriate instead of a summons. Is that the crime now? “Probable cause to believe”? That’s the evidence presented? :dubious: Gimme a fucking break. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/74 "2018-06-19T22:37:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Agreed. However, most U.S. citizens are not afforded such a courtesy when charged with misdemeanor crimes. Further, the nature of this crime suggests that the defendant will be unlikely to show up for trial. > > If it were not for the politically charged nature of this issue, it would be undisputed that there is probable cause to believe these individuals are committing misdemeanor crimes, and that no bond or a high bond is appropriate instead of a summons. Again, we’ve been doing it a different way under the same law cited now for 10 years. In the past, the majority of those who illegally crossed the border were referred for civil deportation proceedings. What exactly has changed other than the administration’s policy? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/75 "2018-06-19T22:47:11Z")
See, this is the problem with the popular portrayal: > **[Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis](https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis/)** > > Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Tr… Because it is being sold to the public as a “family separating” issue rather than a “criminally prosecuting everyone” issue, that gives the Republican party the opening to say, “Well, so, we’ll keep them together.” The problem is, for the left it was never about saving the children, it was about finding some facet of the issue to try and force the prosecutions to stop. Now that the GOP says “Sure!” to the separations aspect, the Dems look like they’re just refusing for slimy reasons (e.g. to keep the negative press against the administration). It puts them between a rock and a hard place. If they accept the deal, then they can’t attack the prosecutions any more, and if they don’t then suddenly they;re the ones splitting up families. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/76 "2018-06-19T23:00:58Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Again, we’ve been doing it a different way under the same law cited now for 10 years. In the past, the majority of those who illegally crossed the border were referred for civil deportation proceedings. What exactly has changed other than the administration’s policy? And how has that policy worked? We have 2,000 children since May. It seems like a different strategy is needed as illegal border crossings continue despite this wonderful ten year policy of catch and release. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/77 "2018-06-19T23:03:15Z")
Il Douche has it tougher, he has to assure his base that he fully intends to get tough and mean, while telling everybody else he hates that and wants it to end. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/78 "2018-06-19T23:03:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite? I don’t believe this is accurate.Hogwash.Is that the crime now? “Probable cause to believe”? That’s the evidence presented? :dubious: Gimme a fucking break. If the government has probable cause to believe that you or I have committed a crime, you bet your ass we will be arrested for it. It happens every day. If a guy is pulled over for a traffic infraction and he is slurring his words, he goes to jail. Maybe he has a medical issue or a speech impediment. Until that issue is resolved or until bail is posted, he sits in jail and any kids he has don’t go with him. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/79 "2018-06-19T23:12:00Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > See, this is the problem with the popular portrayal: > > [http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis](http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis) > > Because it is being sold to the public as a “family separating” issue rather than a “criminally prosecuting everyone” issue, that gives the Republican party the opening to say, “Well, so, we’ll keep them together.” > > The problem is, for the left it was never about saving the children, it was about finding some facet of the issue to try and force the prosecutions to stop. Now that the GOP says “Sure!” to the separations aspect, the Dems look like they’re just refusing for slimy reasons (e.g. to keep the negative press against the administration). It puts them between a rock and a hard place. If they accept the deal, then they can’t attack the prosecutions any more, and if they don’t then suddenly they;re the ones splitting up families. Of course that is if we and others do not see that. The rotten ones are the Republicans and Trump and many are noticing it. > **[Why Trump Is Using Hostage Tactics on Family Separation](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/06/why-trump-is-using-hostage-tactics-on-family-separation.html)** > > It’s a way for him to avoid taking responsibility for his own policy. > [@](#): > > **The Trump administration is holding the children of migrants hostage** , in both the literal and the figurative sense. Literally: The children are taken from their parents in order to leverage the behavior of adult migrants. And figuratively: The administration is leveraging the suffering of these families in order to pressure Democrats into capitulating to the administration’s policy demands. President Trump, reports Axios, “views the issue as leverage, and will try to get funding for a border wall or other concessions for a rollback of the policy.” The problem you are talking about is one for the right: > [@](#): > > One can see the effect of these internal tensions playing out in Breitbart, the heart of the ethno-nationalist media. Rather than forcefully defending Trump’s policy, it is instead deflecting the attention of its audience to ancillary targets in the hated “liberal elite.” One story attacks the news for using the word cages to describe the chain-link enclosures for children. There are stories mocking the responses of Rosie O’Donnell and James L. Brooks. It is all blame-deflection. None of them musters a straightforward explanation of why the Trump policy has wrought some kind of positive change. > > In the face of this confusion within Trump’s base, his stance of using the children as hostages makes a certain amount of sense. The posture allows him simultaneously to distance himself from his own position while conscripting Democrats into responsibility to end what he himself has wrought. > > Hostage-taking — the figurative kind, not the literal version — is different than normal political negotiation. In a standard bargain, the two sides trade a thing one side wants for a thing the other side wants. Say, Republicans want a capital-gains tax cut, and Democrats want to give medical care to children whose parents can’t afford it, and the two sides combine them into the 1998 Balanced Budget Act. Hostage-taking doesn’t work that way. Rather than trade something you want for something I want, the hostage-taker demands that you offer concessions to prevent an outcome neither side wants. > > … [SNIP] > > Conservative sophists lined up behind this strategy, insisting the Republican method was a completely normal negotiation. Indeed, to this day even anti-Trump conservative intellectuals remain furious at the Obama administration for describing their methods as hostage-taking. > > Of course, Obama did eventually figure out how to defeat this tactic, and the method was pretty simple. You refuse to negotiate with the hostage-taker. Trump wants to paper over his internal divisions by getting Democrats to give him something in return for ending a policy he can’t defend. The negotiations themselves obscure the entire source of responsibility. If Trump wants to end family separation, he can and will. If Democrats pay him off for taking children literally hostage, Trump will keep taking more hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/80 "2018-06-19T23:13:07Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, let me roll through Canadian customs at the Rainbow Bridge with my daughter in the car and see if I don’t end up separated from her while I am processed. This is not some new principle of law that just started last month. Maybe you missed my earlier post. Do you believe that a month after showing up at the Canadian border you would have to sue the Canadian government to find out where your child is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=5)