# The law DOES require them to separate children from their families **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339 "2018-06-18T21:15:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/161 "2018-06-20T21:40:53Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Which they wouldn’t be doing without the top two giving them permission. True, but people blaming this solely on Trump and his cronies are making a mistake, this isn’t just some administrative error. You have government employees chucking toddlers in cages and forbidding hugs and these people are not currently strung up from lampposts or at least cowering from a baying mob…I assume they’re all still on the job…the baby caging job…that they haven’t quit in disgust. This is systemic shittyness. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/162 "2018-06-20T21:49:04Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > You have government employees chucking toddlers in cages and forbidding hugs and these people are not currently strung up from lampposts or at least cowering from a baying mob…I assume they’re all still on the job…the baby caging job…that they haven’t quit in disgust. I assume they don’t want to be there but prefer to have a steady paycheck rather than none at all. Voluntarily changing government jobs ain’t easy, especially if they’re trying to go from one job series to another. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/163 "2018-06-20T21:49:51Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > May I interrupt this discussion to ask a couple questions? > > What percentage of those detained are actually illegal immigrants fleeing poverty and what percentage are refugees fleeing violence and seeking political asylum? I’ve been under the impression that most are seeking asylum but can’t find numbers. > > If most are, in fact, seeking political asylum, we should be framing the argument that way instead of assuming the parents are generally committing a crime, right? I’m not sure of the percentages. It has been discussed in several places that the US is violating international agreements with regards to treatment of refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/164 "2018-06-20T21:56:07Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > In what way is this UnAmerican? Good question, actually. Historically, describing something as “American” is hardly evidence of benevolence, nor does describing something as “unAmerican” carry the automatic assumption of malevolence. You’d have to have a pretty sanitized view of history (as well as being pretty out of it in these last 18 months in particular) to blithely link “American” with “good” and “unAmerican” with “evil”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/165 "2018-06-20T22:03:30Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > I assume they don’t want to be there but prefer to have a steady paycheck rather than none at all. Voluntarily changing government jobs ain’t easy, especially if they’re trying to go from one job series to another. I can see staying on the job both to make sure the children are being cared for/protected as well as possible and to serve as a witness later for what was happening. If you are a good person, leaving the kids to the mercy of only those that embrace this policy isn’t the only ethical choice. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/166 "2018-06-20T22:08:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I can see staying on the job both to make sure the children are being cared for/protected as well as possible and to serve as a witness later for what was happening. If you are a good person, leaving the kids to the mercy of only those that embrace this policy isn’t the only ethical choice. Good point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/167 "2018-06-20T22:23:28Z")
So, getting back to the OP, Trump had now signed a executive order which will keep at least some of the families together. So, OP, since the President can’t change a law passed by Congress, is the executive order a legal nullity? Or is it the case that the law gives the President substantial discretion, and this crisis was started by an order from Trump, and is now partially eased by another order from Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/168 "2018-06-20T22:38:28Z")
Well, I for one am glad Trump is saving some families from himself. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/169 "2018-06-20T22:45:12Z")
I’m going to start a separate thread on the executive order. I have many questions… ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/170 "2018-06-20T23:05:24Z")
[Here is the new thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21035697). I linked to news coverage, the relevant past rulings, and a copy of today’s executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/171 "2018-06-20T23:18:31Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > I assume they don’t want to be there but prefer to have a steady paycheck rather than none at all. Voluntarily changing government jobs ain’t easy, especially if they’re trying to go from one job series to another. What salary would you require to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/172 "2018-06-21T00:55:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Am I missing something? IIUC the following facts are facts: > > (1) Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any prior U.S. President in history. He was hardly soft on illegal immigration. > (2) The relevant laws governing treatment of refugees are the same now as they were under Obama. > > Am I wrong? If not, the new atrocities are due to one man’s personal decisions; that man’s name rhymes with Turd-Dump. > **[Immigration lawyer recounts a conversation with Obama about the border crisis...](https://www.businessinsider.com/zero-tolerance-border-crisis-immigration-trump-obama-detention-centers-2018-6)** > > R. Andrew Free, an immigration attorney, recalled a 2015 exchange with President Barack Obama about his administration's housing of asylum-seekers. Free argued that the fallout from President Donald Trump's "zero tolerance" policy is an extension of... Trump didn’t build those cages. The difference was that Obama’s team were more selective on what path to go down earlier in the process. But for cases where they decided to follow the criminal procedures, they ended up in the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/173 "2018-06-21T01:01:57Z")
So you agree, then, that Trump is worse? I’m glad to see this, at least, has been settled. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/174 "2018-06-21T01:15:10Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > So you agree, then, that Trump is worse? I’m glad to see this, at least, has been settled. I’ve never said anything otherwise? I’ve been very clear since the beginning that this thread is anti-Trump and does not defend his choices in this nor any other endeavor. This is a thread about the media failing to be non-partisan and, thereby, playing into Trump’s hands _to use against them_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/175 "2018-06-21T01:29:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This is a thread about the media failing to be non-partisan …and we are all still waiting for you to make your case. I expect the media to take the role of the fourth estate. To hold the people in power to account. Doing that isn’t “partisan.” Its a fundamental part of what we expect them to do. > [@](#): > > and, thereby, playing into Trump’s hands _to use against them_. The media isn’t playing into Trump’s hands when they do their job. The very last thing the media should be worried about is how Trump is going to spin things. Its the biggest mistake they could possibly make. Just yesterday the New York Times spiked parts of a podcast at the request of the White House. They shouldn’t be doing that. If you change your story based on how Trump and his base react then you have literally yielded the narrative. You let Trump control the story. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/176 "2018-06-21T01:57:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and we are all still waiting for you to make your case. > > I expect the media to take the role of the fourth estate. To hold the people in power to account. Doing that isn’t “partisan.” Its a fundamental part of what we expect them to do. I would be very happy to argue with you and to convince you of my thesis, but right now that would be a waste of time because, fundamentally, you think that I’m doing something and saying something different than I am. You believe that somehow I am seeking to defend Trump or his policy, or to try and destroy the media, so that Trump or the Republicans aren’t being taken apart by them, or whatever. And, so far as your posts read to me, I don’t believe that until you’ve moved on from believing that, that there’s anything I could post that would serve as evidence of my point. First, I have to convince you that I hate Trump, love the media, and am on your side. Are you willing to trust that I hate Trump, love the media, and am on your side? > [@](#): > > The media isn’t playing into Trump’s hands when they do their job. I agree, and that’s what I’m arguing for. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/177 "2018-06-21T02:08:33Z")
You are arguing that the media is being deceptive because you think that there’s no evidence that the family separations were the goal and that they are instead incidental to the new zero tolerance policy. But it’s been pointed out to you in this thread that individuals in the Trump administration explicitly identified the decision to massively ramp up family separations as a deterrent. So I don’t see the dishonesty on the part of the media. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/178 "2018-06-21T02:13:45Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You are arguing that the media is being deceptive because you think that there’s no evidence that the family separations were the goal and that they are instead incidental to the new zero tolerance policy. But it’s been pointed out to you in this thread that i **ndividuals in the Trump administration explicitly identified the decision to massively ramp up family separations as a deterrent**. So I don’t see the dishonesty on the part of the media. I have missed the bolded. Link? I have seen statements in the media to this effect, but none of the Trump officials have said so in any actual quotes from them that I have seen. I think I have seen a few statements from a few individuals within the administration to the effect that they’re all for it in a post-hoc fashion, but nothing that it was a policy goal, and most of them have vehemently denied that it was or is a goal. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/179 "2018-06-21T02:14:51Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I would be very happy to argue with you and to convince you of my thesis, but right now that would be a waste of time because, fundamentally, you think that I’m doing something and saying something different than I am. …you are incorrect. > [@](#): > > You believe that somehow I am seeking to defend Trump or his policy, or to try and destroy the media, so that Trump or the Republicans aren’t being taken apart by them, or whatever. Wrong. This is not my belief. Not even close. > [@](#): > > And, so far as your posts read to me, I don’t believe that until you’ve moved on from believing that, that there’s anything I could post that would serve as evidence of my point. It would probably help if you started by reading my posts. Because nothing I have written comes remotely close to how you have characterized them. > [@](#): > > First, I have to convince you that I hate Trump, love the media, and am on your side. Nope. First you have to go back to the very first post that you wrote here and make a case that what you assert is in fact truth. > [@](#): > > Are you willing to trust that I hate Trump, love the media, and am on your side? You aren’t on “my side.” And whether you love or hate Trump, whether you love or hate the media, have no bearing on my initial request, which is that you back up what you wrote in the OP. > [@](#): > > I agree, and that’s what I’m arguing for. No you don’t agree, and you aren’t arguing for that. You literally argued the exact opposite when you said the media shouldn’t play into Trump’s hands. If the media try to avoid “playing into Trump’s hands” then they aren’t doing their job. They are doing Trump’s job. They are being played by him. They should not try and do that. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339/180 "2018-06-21T02:23:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I have missed the bolded. Link? > > I have seen statements in the media to this effect, but none of the Trump officials have said so in any actual quotes from them that I have seen. I think I have seen a few statements from a few individuals within the administration to the effect that they’re all for it in a post-hoc fashion, but nothing that it was a policy goal, and most of them have vehemently denied that it was or is a goal. You didn’t bold anything, but I can infer. It was in post #34: > [@HelenGawn](#): > > Here ya go: [From here](http://www.businessinsider.com/kelly-proposed-family-separation-to-deter-illegal-immigration-in-2017-2018-6). It’s got quotes from Kelly and Sessions making it pretty clear that the family separation was foreseen far in advance and was designed as a deterrent/punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-law-does-require-them-to-separate-children-from-their-families/816339.md?page=10)