# The Lawrence of Arabia appreciation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 22, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079 "2010-08-22T16:55:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/21 "2010-08-23T18:19:35Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > > [@markdash](#): > > > > This is an appreciation thread. Should I hold my tongue on criticism? > > No, go ahead! I’m really interested in all comments 🙂 My main criticisms are that it’s meandering, and I don’t mean “long”; at 3.5 hours it would be hard to hold an audience’s attention even if the material were scintillating, but I found LoA to be… anything but. Too many slow conversations, wandering in the desert, and such. And the “Mickey Rooney” award for racist casting was Alec Guiness as Prince Feisal. I know, I know, this was a common practice back in the 50’s and 60’s, but watching it in 2008 I couldn’t help but be mildly offended by it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/22 "2010-08-25T18:05:36Z")
IMHO, they should have hired David Lean to direct \*\*Dune \*\*instead of David Lynch. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/23 "2010-08-25T18:16:01Z")
This is one of my all-time favorite films. I saw the restored version (the one with an extra 20 minutes, and re-looped dialog) at the sorely missed [Cine Capri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cine_Capri), the last of the true Cinemascope theaters in Arizona. Even at nearly 4 hours, I didn’t want it to end - I thought it was beautifully filmed, immersive, and completely engaging. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/24 "2010-08-25T18:20:26Z")
It’s playing this coming Sunday at a theater in suburban Philly. I’ve never seen it on the big screen and I’m very much looking forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/25 "2010-08-25T18:26:44Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > And the “Mickey Rooney” award for racist casting was Alec Guiness as Prince Feisal. I know, I know, this was a common practice back in the 50’s and 60’s, but watching it in 2008 I couldn’t help but be mildly offended by it. The second billing went to an Arabic actor (with an obviously arabic name), so I don’t think having Faisel played by Guinness was racially motivated. Alot of Lean’s films from that time period have Guinness in them, so I suspect he just wanted a role for in in Lawrence as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/26 "2010-08-25T18:27:48Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > > [@Gestalt](#): > > > > No, go ahead! I’m really interested in all comments 🙂 > > My main criticisms are that it’s meandering, and I don’t mean “long”; at 3.5 hours it would be hard to hold an audience’s attention even if the material were scintillating, but I found LoA to be… anything but. Too many slow conversations, wandering in the desert, and such. > > And the “Mickey Rooney” award for racist casting was Alec Guiness as Prince Feisal. I know, I know, this was a common practice back in the 50’s and 60’s, but watching it in 2008 I couldn’t help but be mildly offended by it. I’ve read that the Arab extras found the likeness very striking, actually. I mean, sure, it’s racist casting, but it isn’t ludicrous at least. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/27 "2010-08-25T18:33:38Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > > [@markdash](#): > > > > My main criticisms are that it’s meandering, and I don’t mean “long”; at 3.5 hours it would be hard to hold an audience’s attention even if the material were scintillating, but I found LoA to be… anything but. Too many slow conversations, wandering in the desert, and such. > > > > And the “Mickey Rooney” award for racist casting was Alec Guiness as Prince Feisal. I know, I know, this was a common practice back in the 50’s and 60’s, but watching it in 2008 I couldn’t help but be mildly offended by it. > > I’ve read that the Arab extras found the likeness very striking, actually. I mean, sure, it’s racist casting, but it isn’t ludicrous at least. Definitely; it’s not nearly as offensive as Rooney who played a caricature of another race. I just find the entire practice of casting people as different ethnicities to be offensive in hindsight. I recall Robert Blake being cast as a Mexican boy on more than one occasion because he looked vaguely hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/28 "2010-08-25T18:42:45Z")
They [look](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/FeisalPartyAtVersaillesCopy.jpg) more or less [alike](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_U5OmWgNVk8k/SiTMhsCc8JI/AAAAAAAABHE/0k1ufKOEiX0/s320/Lawrence+of+Arabia+-+Alec+Guinness+as+Faisal.jpg). Granted if you throw that headress and goatee on anyone of vaguely the same physical characteristics you can probably get a pretty good Prince Faisel out of them. > [@markdash](#): > > Definitely; it’s not nearly as offensive as Rooney who played a caricature of another race. I just find the entire practice of casting people as different ethnicities to be offensive in hindsight. I recall Robert Blake being cast as a Mexican boy on more than one occasion because he looked vaguely hispanic. Why? I mean, some casting is racially motivated, in which case I agree it’s offensive (David Caradine as a Chinese Monk, for example, was supposedly done because audiences at the time wouldn’t accept a Chines leading man). But if you have an actor whose good in a part and its not distractingly obvious that they’re the wrong ethnicity and they’re honestly chosen because they’re the best person for the role, I don’t think its particularly problematic. After all, for at least some ethnicities your drawing on a pretty limited pool. How many arabic leading men were there running around the UK 1962 that weren’t Omar Sharif? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/29 "2010-08-25T18:52:53Z")
You do realise that Arabs are technically the same race as Alec Guiness. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/30 "2010-08-25T19:00:20Z")
I really have nothing to add to the great OP other than to note that I so fondly remember it for the cinematography that I kind of forgot how great the acting is. I was also surprised at how the movie didn’t really shy away from his homosexuality. I wonder if there was any outcry at the time from the right? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/31 "2010-08-25T19:32:13Z")
Great flick. I saw it first in the UK in a full, proper sized screen during the 80s restoration. Saw it the second time in LA. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/32 "2010-08-25T21:22:03Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > They [look](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/FeisalPartyAtVersaillesCopy.jpg) more or less [alike](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_U5OmWgNVk8k/SiTMhsCc8JI/AAAAAAAABHE/0k1ufKOEiX0/s320/Lawrence+of+Arabia+-+Alec+Guinness+as+Faisal.jpg). > > Granted if you throw that headress and goatee on anyone of vaguely the same physical characteristics you can probably get a pretty good Prince Faisel out of them. > > > [@markdash](#): > > > > Definitely; it’s not nearly as offensive as Rooney who played a caricature of another race. I just find the entire practice of casting people as different ethnicities to be offensive in hindsight. I recall Robert Blake being cast as a Mexican boy on more than one occasion because he looked vaguely hispanic. > > Why? I mean, some casting is racially motivated, in which case I agree it’s offensive (David Caradine as a Chinese Monk, for example, was supposedly done because audiences at the time wouldn’t accept a Chines leading man). But if you have an actor whose good in a part and its not distractingly obvious that they’re the wrong ethnicity and they’re honestly chosen because they’re the best person for the role, I don’t think its particularly problematic. > > After all, for at least some ethnicities your drawing on a pretty limited pool. How many arabic leading men were there running around the UK 1962 that weren’t Omar Sharif? Maybe the issue was more that it was a recognizable actor. “Hey, it’s Alec Guinness! Playing… an arab prince!!!” If they had used a no-name actor it would have been much less distracting. Again, I’m not saying I blame them for doing it, but it lessens my enjoyment of the movie, especially when I think he’s going to pull out a lightsaber. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/33 "2010-08-25T21:27:47Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > What I’m most impressed by is the sophisticated portrayal of the main characters involved. Somehow, considering the release date (1962), I expected this to be a depiction of Lawrence as some perfectly, manly, brightly-shining white man who saves the barbarous Arabs from themselves. With maybe some noble-savage types thrown in. ??? And that’s exactly what you get – right up to the point where Lawrence orders the attack on the retreating Turkish convoy, and even then the audience is tempted to sympathize with him. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/34 "2010-08-25T21:59:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > ??? And that’s exactly what you get – right up to the point where Lawrence orders the attack on the retreating Turkish convoy, and even then the audience is tempted to sympathize with him. Except for the parts where he’s depicted as vain, judgmental, arrogant, foolhardy, and obssessive–you know: most of the movie the rest of us saw. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/35 "2010-08-25T23:34:45Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Peter O’Toole also does a great job depicting Lawrence in all his bizareness. Is O’Toole naturally that effete, or did he have to work on it? O’Toole fell into a rut over the years of mainly playing Eccentric Charming Englishman #4 for everything where the director would let him, but when he’s not slumming he’s an absolutely brilliant actor and this was his first leading role, so pretty much anything he brought to the character was probably intentional and more Lawrence than O’Toole. I think somebody with the video equipment should do a series of shorts for YouTube that give you not a college course in but bite sized historical background for some movies. While it can still be a great movie, I wish I’d known a bit more about the history of Arabia and who these people were when I first saw it as a teenager (when I assumed Alec Guinness’s character was the first king of Arabia and thus a member of the Sa’ud dynasty for example- he was in fact King of Iraq) or a bit more about the British Empire and Ottoman Empire’s involvement in the Arab peninsula. (I’d also do one for _The Lion in Winter_ [explain why the king of England is in France, for example] and _Man for All Seasons_ and others- basically a “the least you need to know” thing.) That said it speaks great of the movie that in spite of most people’s ignorance or relative ignorance of Arab history (my own included, especially on first viewing) you still know this is a great picture. And that scene of Omar Sharif’s character coming out of the mirage should be up there with Scarlett’s _As God is my witness_ silhouette and Don Corleone saying “Make him an offer he can’t refuse”. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/36 "2010-08-25T23:59:50Z")
Re: the casting of Guinness- [King Faisal I of Iraq](http://uqconnect.net/~zzhsoszy/states/islamic/iraq_faisal.jpg) [Alec Guinness as King Faisal](http://www.reportfromcannes.com/images/lawrence_faisal.jpg) There’s a very strong natural resemblance made even moreso by makeup. I don’t see anything racist about it, certainly no more than Irish-Mexican Anthony Quinn playing a Bedouin (or later a Greek) or Puerto Rican Jose Ferrer playing a Turk or Omar Sharif playing a Russian, also for Lean. David Lean wanted great actors in his movies, and he _always_ wanted Alec Guinness; he’d have probably cast him as a camel if there’d been no other roles and Guinness probably would have worn a hump and been believable. Guinness was one of the legendary chameleon actors who became [Hitler](http://a69.g.akamai.net/n/69/10688/v1/img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/rsz/434/x/x/x/medias/nmedia/18/65/32/02/18846449.jpg), [Fagin the Jew](http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1036027035822_2002/11/01/ent_fagin02.jpg) (also for David Lean), the smarmy over-the-top [criminal genius in his own mind in The Lady Killers](http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes33/LadyKillers7.jpg), [Cyrano de Bergerac](http://www.alec-guinness.de/galerie/cyrano.JPG), [Godbole](http://www.starwarped.net/files/other-roles/Alec-Guinness/A-Passage-to-India-Professor-Godbole-0.jpg) in _Passage to India_ and of course Jar Jar Binks in the _Star Wars_ movies; he was used to putting on makeup and reducing or enlarging facial features for his roles so this was just another, but he brought all of his characters whether in farce or drama a believability and humanity. I’m trying to remember if you ever seen any women in the movie other than the funeral scene at the beginning. Are there any in the Egyptian hotel scenes? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/37 "2010-08-26T00:09:40Z")
The real Lawrence was not such a photogenic character-he was short and far from handsome. he also fictionalized much of his activities-the rape by the Turkish general was probably an invention. But the movies is great-superbly photographed and directed. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/38 "2010-08-26T01:04:39Z")
And a First in Western Cinema: in the “I am a river to my people” scene where Anthony Quinn hosts Lawrence and the Harith in his tent, as the servants take away the giant platter of leftovers, Quinn lolls and passes postprandial flatus; 12 years before Blazing Saddles, but 3 years after the Japanese comedy [Good Morning,](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053134/) which had a running gag of the dad farting and the mom trotting into his den asking “did you call me?” Great movie (and one proof of that is that it’s so big that even Claude Rains didn’t steal it), but bad history: (boring Root Causes of World War One, blah, blah, blah: the German goal of circumventing British sea power by building railroads into Central Asia, blah, blah, blah). The Turks had the Germans also build a railroad to Mecca. Much as the US interstate put motel, gas station and diner owners along old Route 66 out of business, this railroad carrying pilgrims put the hurt on a lot of Arabs who’d been fleecing them for centuries. These Arabs were ripe recruits to draw Turkish troops away from the main battlefields. What the movie doesn’t show is all the women and children on the trains being blown up by Lawrence. Unlike the victims of the Lusitania, these people weren’t collateral damage on the same conveyance as arms shipments: they were the main targets. But dumb war movies don’t inspire viewers to learn more in depth. I’m sure the Coast Watchers were amazing, but Father Goose hasn’t led me to read one book about them. Something about Lawrence of Arabia makes you want to know what was behind the adventure. The only cinematic criticism I can level is the score by Maurice Jarre. So much of it is just so…French. Arabic music filtered through Saint-Saëns, martial music via Gounod, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/39 "2010-08-26T01:21:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > David Lean… _always_ wanted Alec Guinness; he’d have probably cast him as a camel if there’d been no other roles and Guinness probably would have worn a hump and been believable. Brilliant. :D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079/40 "2010-08-26T01:44:56Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Peter O’Toole also does a great job depicting Lawrence in all his bizareness. Is O’Toole naturally that effete, or did he have to work on it? I believe it was Noel Coward who said “He’s so pretty they should have called it Florence of Arabia.” Or something like that – I’m quoting from memory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lawrence-of-arabia-appreciation-thread/551079.md?page=3)