# The LDS Church's Statement on the US Elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 7, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226 "2012-11-07T15:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/221 "2012-11-12T15:32:30Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Judaism is [both a religion and a race](http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm), FYI. This is for your own link > [@](#): > > Are Jews a Race? > > In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the “Jewish race” or the “Italian race” as well as the “Negro race,” so that is what the legislators intended to protect. > > But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin. > > **But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.** > > Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can’t change your race; it’s in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to. > > Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung). So being Jewish is not a race, it’s a religious and often familial association. Again, from your own link. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/222 "2012-11-12T15:34:33Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > There is no consensus about Jesus’ ethnicity or appearance. But there is a lot more evidence to suggest that he might have been or appeared black than there is that he looked or appeared Aryan. > > You still haven’t answered whether you think Native Americans are actually Jews… What do you think of the [DNA evidence that refutes this claim](http://www.equip.org/articles/dna-science-challenges-lds-history/)? Read my quote from your own reference above. They could have been Jewish, or religiously associated with Judaism without be ethically Hebraic. So it is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/223 "2012-11-12T15:38:33Z")
Try bolding the other part: \*\* > [@](#): > > **Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research.** \*\*That is why being Jewish is both a religion and a race. Nobody ever suggested that a converted Jew was not Jewish. But [DNA evidence shows](http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all) that there is more than just religion that connects Jews. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/224 "2012-11-12T15:39:34Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Read my quote from your own reference above. They could have been Jewish, or religiously associated with Judaism without be ethically Hebraic. So it is a possibility. You have a citation that native Americans practiced the Jewish faith? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/225 "2012-11-12T15:43:26Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Try bolding the other part: > > \*\*\*\*That is why being Jewish is both a religion and a race. Nobody ever suggested that a converted Jew was not Jewish. But [DNA evidence shows](http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all) that there is more than just religion that connects Jews. The Jewish people reject that distinction as a race. Who are you to force it on them if they themselves reject it? > [@](#): > > But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin. Plus your article uses the genetic similarities to denote a familial, not a racial, connection. You are arguing against your own source. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/226 "2012-11-12T16:05:05Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Tribal Groups > Straddling the boundaries between Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir lives the world’s largest tribal grouping—the Pathans. All of the 15 million Pathans, who comprise some 60 tribes, claim descent from Kish, an ancestor of the Biblical King Saul. Many of them also claim to be them children of the Lost Israelites. …From every imaginable corner of the world theories arise linking different peoples and tribes with the Ten Lost Tribes: the Crimea, the Caucasus, Kenya, Nigeria, Armenia, Persia, Central Asia, North Siberia, West Africa, Peru, South America, Australia, Ireland. While the evidence may at times seem flimsy, the Jewish elements in these tribal cultures continue to fascinate scholar and layman alike. Yes, there have been lots of claims about the Lost Tribes, luckily we have a way of evaluating claims: it’s called science. Using DNA to trace the migration of American Indians does not line up with the idea that they are from the middle east. Archaeologists do not find evidence that the events in the BOM took place. Placing the Garden of Eden in Missouri beggars all belief. It does not match up in any way with historical records, genetic family trees, or archaeological sites. There is, however, some DNA evidence that some tribes in Africa may be related to ethnic Jews. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/227 "2012-11-12T16:10:46Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > The Jewish people reject that distinction as a race. Who are you to force it on them if they themselves reject it? You speak for all Jews? The concept of [Ethnic Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_groups) is not something that all Jews disavow to my knowledge even if Hitler gave them good reasons to 70 or so years ago… > [@](#): > > Plus your article uses the genetic similarities to denote a familial, not a racial, connection. > You are arguing against your own source. The article I cited specifically addresses LDS belief. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/228 "2012-11-12T16:35:48Z")
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with this argument, **April R**. The 12 Tribes of Israel were supposed to be founded by the sons of Jacob/Israel, so there should be a genetic link if the Book of Mormon story is true. There isn’t any link. I’m not sure if you can say the Book of Mormon story is literally true while rejecting the Old Testament story. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/229 "2012-11-12T16:51:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with this argument, **April R**. The 12 Tribes of Israel were supposed to be founded by the sons of Jacob/Israel, so there should be a genetic link if the Book of Mormon story is true. There isn’t any link. I’m not sure if you can say the Book of Mormon story is literally true while rejecting the Old Testament story. I wasn’t trying to win or prove anything. I was just pointing our the JSLE’s own source disputes what he was trying to claim. That is all. I have no horse in this race, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/230 "2012-11-12T17:18:07Z")
> [@](#): > > molecular anthropologist Michael H. Crawford has stated this problem succinctly and repeatedly in his volume The Origins of Native Americans: > > “The Conquest and its sequelae squeezed the entire Amerindian population through a genetic bottleneck. The reduction of Amerindian gene pools from 1/3 to 1/25 of their previous size implies a considerable loss of genetic variability. […] It is highly unlikely that survivorship was genetically random. […] Thus, the present gene-frequency distributions of Amerindian populations may be distorted by a combination of effects stemming from genetic bottlenecks and natural selection. […] This population reduction has forever altered the genetics of the surviving groups, thus complicating any attempts at reconstructing the pre-Columbian genetic structure of most New World groups.” So using genetics as a definitive proof or disproof of lineage isn’t full proof. If halotypes have been lost, then it is possible genetic evidence of familial lineage has been lost as well. I am not claiming proof or no proof either way, but using genetics as the reason to believe or not believe something isn’t logical. Genetics can give incite as to which groups of people are related to each other, but lack of evidence does not prove lack of relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/231 "2012-11-12T17:31:59Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I wasn’t trying to win or prove anything. I was just pointing our the JSLE’s own source disputes what he was trying to claim. That is all. I have no horse in this race, so to speak. You’re disputing whether the appropriate term is race or ethnicity, which has no bearing on the facts that you’re discussing. > [@April\_R](#): > > So using genetics as a definitive proof or disproof of lineage isn’t full proof. It’s much better evidence than the Book of Mormon is. I’m not sure what you’re quoting, but if he says the surviving genes were _not_ random, I don’t think that helps you. > [@](#): > > I am not claiming proof or no proof either way, but using genetics as the reason to believe or not believe something isn’t logical. Sure it is. > [@](#): > > Genetics can give incite as to which groups of people are related to each other, but lack of evidence does not prove lack of relationship. Yes, this comes up a lot with regard to Biblical arguments: you can’t always prove they didn’t happen, but the fact that there is no evidence they happened is pretty strong. As **fumster** noted, there is also no archaeological evidence to support the Mormon teaching. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/232 "2012-11-12T18:00:50Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > So using genetics as a definitive proof or disproof of lineage isn’t full proof. If halotypes have been lost, then it is possible genetic evidence of familial lineage has been lost as well. I am not claiming proof or no proof either way, but using genetics as the reason to believe or not believe something isn’t logical. Genetics can give incite as to which groups of people are related to each other, but lack of evidence does not prove lack of relationship. I always love how people use science selectively. The study of genetics show nothing to support an “out of Missouri” origin of man, rather they show homo sapiens appearing in Africa about 200,000 years ago after evolving from earlier species. This is supported by fossil evidence. Study of genetics shows how homo sapiens spread out from that central point and that is supported by archaeology and radioactive dating. There are several theories about the origin of native Americans, and there appears to be several migrations that occurred, but there is noting to support the idea of American Indians being ethnic Jews, or evidence of civilizations that match what is described in the BOM. Beyond which, if the Garden of Eden was in Missouri shouldn’t that show homo sapiens migrating in the opposite direction? As I said before, I am really surprised. I though that Mormons would be past some of the silliness and look at the history presented in the BOM as allegorical rather than literal. Especially as there is so little to support it and so much that contradicts it. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/233 "2012-11-12T18:11:24Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > I have no horse in this race, so to speak. What about a tapir? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/234 "2012-11-12T18:24:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You can read [this](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865566393/Religious-leaders-across-the-country-send-congratulations-on-Obamas-re-election.html) to see the same decent thing done also by the Roman Catholic Pope, the Dalai Lama, the Southern Baptist Convention President, the Secretary General of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, and the World Jewish Congress President. Maybe governance of the country should be turned over to religion.😃 (Okay, not so :D. More like :eek:.) I suppose religious leaders automatically give statements like that every election. Still, after some comments I’ve seen since election night, the LDS statement was a breath of fresh air, maybe a little more so because one of their own lost the election. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/235 "2012-11-12T18:33:02Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I suppose religious leaders automatically give statements like that every election. Still, after some comments I’ve seen since election night, the LDS statement was a breath of fresh air, maybe a little more so because one of their own lost the election. Note that Cardinal Dolan’s statement echoes the church-backed lie about the Obama administration attacking religious freedom: > [@Dolan on behalf of the RCC](#): > > We will continue to stand in defense of life, marriage, and our first, most cherished liberty, religious freedom. Not very subtle, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/236 "2012-11-12T19:32:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I am not sure what you are trying to achieve with this argument, **April R**. The 12 Tribes of Israel were supposed to be founded by the sons of Jacob/Israel, so there should be a genetic link if the Book of Mormon story is true. There isn’t any link. I’m not sure if you can say the Book of Mormon story is literally true while rejecting the Old Testament story. Well, according to the Book of Mormon, God changed them into blacks to show how horrible they were. If he did this, presumably that would change their DNA. Obviously that is not an explanation I endorse. However, I’ve never heard any Mormons explain where all the horses, which are referred to repeatedly in the Book yet apparently dissappeared withou leaving any fossil evidence only to be reintroduced by Europeans over a thousand years later. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/237 "2012-11-12T19:53:49Z")
Just to clarify something that’s getting lost in the conversation here. Mormons don’t believe that the 10 “lost” tribes of Israel went to North America. Mormons believe that an extended family of Jews/Hebrews living in Jerusalem circa 600 BC built boats and sailed to North America and established a large civilization there. That is why critics of the Mormon Church bring up DNA; if this single Jewish family founded this enormous civilization (which eventually spawned Native American tribes) there should be some DNA evidence remaining. The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel is a completely seperate issue. The tribes were “lost” AFTER the Book of Mormon family left Jerusalem. In fact, they supposedly left to avoid getting caught up in the coming destruction of Jerusalem and scattering. Now the Mormons do have a teaching about the Lost Tribes that they can’t fanwank away. Joseph Smith composed 13 doctrinal points of the Mormon Church, called the Articles of Faith. They’re basically as close as you’ll get a Mormon to commit to a doctrine. Anyway, Article 10 says that Mormons believe in the LITERAL regathering of these Lost Tribes. This could be considered embarrassing if these tribes weren’t really “lost” but merely mixed together, which is my understanding of current Jewish thought about the supposedly Lost Tribes. This isn’t my field of expertise, so I welcome any corrections. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/238 "2012-11-12T20:40:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, according to the Book of Mormon, God changed them into blacks to show how horrible they were. > . It said their skin was darkened, no mention of turning them black. That is a separate interpretation. And this was to make them distinct from the faithful, not as a literal punishment. They also distinguished themselves through dress and cultural practices that had nothing to do with skin color. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/239 "2012-11-12T20:50:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, according to the Book of Mormon, God changed them into blacks to show how horrible they were. > > If he did this, presumably that would change their DNA. > > Obviously that is not an explanation I endorse. > > However, I’ve never heard any Mormons explain where all the horses, which are referred to repeatedly in the Book yet apparently dissappeared withou leaving any fossil evidence only to be reintroduced by Europeans over a thousand years later. A couple nitpicks: God cursed them with dark skin, which is code for changed the “white and delightsome” Hebrews into darker skinned Native Americans. I have no idea how much genetic engineering this would require, but I can’t imagine it would mean replacing ALL their DNA. Anyway, modern Mormons have fanwanked this in various ways, including the now popular idea that the Hebrew DNA was eventually subsumed into the pre-existing Native American DNA, but this contradicts hundreds of years of Mormon doctrine. Horses and steel are a constant pain in the side of Mormon believers. A number of amusing and ridiculous suggestions have been made, most notably that the “horses” of the Book of Mormon were, in fact, tapirs (which are native to the Americas), and the steel swords of the innumerable Book of Mormon battles were macuahuitls. Someone online photoshopped tapirs and macuahuitls into the official Mormon artwork (which shows horses and metal swords) with very amusing results, but I can’t find it right now. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/240 "2012-11-12T21:26:35Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > It said their skin was darkened, no mention of turning them black. That is a separate interpretation. And this was to make them distinct from the faithful, not as a literal punishment. They also distinguished themselves through dress and cultural practices that had nothing to do with skin color. How convenient that it fit the racial prejudice of the day and that the founders were all white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226.md?page=13)