# The LDS Church's Statement on the US Elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 7, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226 "2012-11-07T15:34:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/121 "2012-11-08T03:43:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You obviously missed my mod note. This hijack is over. I’m sorry. That’s sincere. stpauler, made comments that seemed to me to indicate hatred of Jews, declaring “same cult, different day” in response to comments about Jews and I wanted to know where that came from. > [@](#): > > Yes, it is. However crass stpauler’s comments are, these attempted gotchas are a hijack of the thread and they’re not contributing to the discussion. They need to end now. How is classifying Mormons as “barbarians” dramatically different that classifying Jews as “vermin”? I honestly don’t see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/122 "2012-11-08T03:48:14Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > As absurd as it appears to us, Mormons really believe that someday they’ll succeed in converting large percentages of the population to their religion. True, just as most Muslims are convinced that Jews are evil, worship Ezra just as the Christians worship Jesus, and believe that on Judgment Day the stones themselves will stand up and announce to all good Muslims that a Jew is hiding behind them and direct them to kill Jew. end sarcastic comment. Look, I’ll assume you recognize the above comment is complete bullshit even though it’s supported by both the Quran and the Hadiths. There is a rather technical term for assuming that people believe what is in the sacred texts of their religions. It’s called “foolishness.” Most American recognize it when it comes to mainline Christian denominations because they’re more familiar with them, but it’s not just true of them. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/123 "2012-11-08T03:50:36Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I would respond in another thread (and point out there that I am not defending Mormonism, which has not been discussed yet in this thread in any serious way, but objecting to essentializing Mormons a gruesome cultists who cleave to barbaric tenets (which, evidently, is something less than saying they are barbaric) and who should be wished good riddance from the American political arena _for no other reason than that they are Mormons_). > > As it is, Marley has asked these thread to return to its stated topic, which is perfectly fair. I think your hypothetical response would probably be well within the topic at hand, but I respect your reticence to discuss stpauler’s offhand and fairly silly “pox on all religions” throwaway comment. If I were responding to your theoretical response, I would point out that while it’s silly to call Mormonism’s tenets **in the 21st century** barbaric, a case could be made that trying to cure homosexuality by electrocuting someone while they watch gay porn is less than humane. Marley: I trust that the above is on topic as I understood your mod note to be to stick to discussing Mormonism and not Islam or Judaism or drone attacks. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/124 "2012-11-08T03:51:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It isn’t progress until the church actually treats members of its congregation equally. It’s nice that you and AprilR claim to be cool with gay and lesbian people, but unless you are speaking up in your church about acceptance, equality, and fair treatment it’s just lip service, just like the statement lauded in the OP. Don’t kid yourself. “I’m not bigoted; some of my best friends are gay” isn’t activism. As long as you are quiet and compliant with regards to the Mormon church’s policies about homosexuality and equal treatment of the sexes you do represent the church’s backwards, bigoted views. When you say I’m a practicing Mormon" you are saying “I endorse discrimination against women and the LGBT community. They aren’t as human as we are.” Not everyone can fight every battle. Some people just like green jello, need something to do on Sundays, and really don’t want to start a fight with their parents. I have voted for members of the Democratic Party. I absolutely \*loathe[/i[ war and the bullshit we are doing abroad that kills innocent people. The Dems have been complicit with it, and have played an enabling role. Does that make me a personal killer of Iraqi babies? Of course not. Do I feel like I have a moral obligation to fight tooth and nail for a change in US foreign policy? Not really. I have my causes I fight for, but if I walked around making sure every single organization that I’m associated with is absolutely kosher, I’d never get anything done. And frankly at this point in time I don’t think I could do much that would change things. They are going to do what they do with or without me. Do i think that eventually the Democratic Party will embrace the views of people like me? In this particular case, I don’t have a ton of hope, but I’d love to be a part of that change if it comes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/125 "2012-11-08T04:02:00Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It isn’t progress until the church actually treats members of its congregation equally. It’s nice that you and AprilR claim to be cool with gay and lesbian people, but unless you are speaking up in your church about acceptance, equality, and fair treatment it’s just lip service, just like the statement lauded in the OP. Don’t kid yourself. “I’m not bigoted; some of my best friends are gay” isn’t activism. As long as you are quiet and compliant with regards to the Mormon church’s policies about homosexuality and equal treatment of the sexes you do represent the church’s backwards, bigoted views. When you say I’m a practicing Mormon" you are saying “I endorse discrimination against women and the LGBT community. They aren’t as human as we are.” Do you also have such contempt for Jews and Muslims, who belong to religions that don’t allow men and women to pray together or be Imams, Cantors, or Rabbis or for girls to receive Bat Mitzvahs? If not, why? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/126 "2012-11-08T12:11:16Z")
[Definition of barbaric:](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/barbaric) b : possessing or characteristic of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization. The cultural level of Mormonism would include [cult-like behaviors](http://packham.n4m.org/cult.htm) while eschewing [scientific information to preserve their level of faith.](http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm) [QUOTE=kimmy gibbler] Mormons a gruesome cultists who cleave to barbaric tenets (which, evidently, is something less than saying they are barbaric) and who should be wished good riddance from the American political arena for no other reason than that they are Mormons). [/QUOTE] No, you need to read the words I actually typed instead of inferring what you choose and making hyperbolic statements as is your \*de rigeur \*in this thread. I said: “I’m glad one of its leaders was rejected from office”. Was Romney just a member of the LDS or was he one of its leaders? Romney was in fact a bishop in the LDS. [Here are a couple examples of him being “advancedly civilized” (AKA barbaric) as a bishop.](http://www.alternet.org/belief/mitt-romneys-role-mormon-bishop-shows-his-extremist-religious-beliefs) > [@](#): > > Chosen as a kind of enforcer-in-chief, Romney betrayed a zeal far beyond the call of duty. Bishop Romney tried to stop a mother of four whose health was seriously endangered by her pregnancy from having an abortion. The church allows abortion in cases of rape, incest, and danger to the life of the mother, provided a male LDS authority gives permission to the pregnant woman. Romney’s superior had already told the woman to proceed for the sake of her health; Romney intervened. Romney refused to allow an infertile couple to take advantage of the LDS adoption service until the wife agreed to quit her job and be a stay-at-home mother. Other reliable reports of Mitt’s years as a Mormon clergyman have him excommunicating adulterers, calling homosexuals under his authority “ perverse,” warning a middle-aged divorced woman that she was not allowed to have sex, and telling a leading Mormon feminist, “ You’re not my kind of Mormon .” > > Candidate Romney supported a women’s right to legal abortion, and opposed abstinence-only sex education; Governor Romney opposed abortion, tried to roll back reproductive rights and embryonic stem-cell research, and expanded abstinence-only sex education. The candidate dropped pink fliers at Boston’s Gay Pride parade saying, “Mitt and Kerry wish you a great Pride weekend.” Mitt the governor tried to change state law to allow Catholic adoption agencies to discriminate against gay couples. Most troubling, given the credible Washington Post report about a teenaged Mitt chopping off the hair of a gay classmate, was Romney’s elimination of the governor’s Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth . The commission had been chartered by Republican Governor William Weld to tackle the problem of gay teen suicide. > > iven recent controversies over rape and abortion, one particular decision by Governor Romney merits renewed scrutiny. In July 2005, Romney cut short a New Hampshire vacation in order to veto a bill requiring hospitals to give emergency contraception to rape victims. (The legislature overrode his veto.) Romney defended his veto by claiming he had “spoken with medical professionals” who had informed him that the morning-after pill could work as “an abortion pill.” Who those unnamed scientists are and what they told Romney is unknown. But Romney’s contention is as false, if not as patently absurd, as Todd Akin’s now classic “legitimate rape” canard. The morning-after pill contains a different dose of hormonal contraception to prevent pregnancy; it does not induce abortion. Romney persists in calling emergency contraception “ abortive pills .” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/127 "2012-11-08T12:14:13Z")
Romney was not a leader of the LDS church when he ran for president. He is not currently a bishop nor a stake president. Those offices are not permanent offices as they are in some other churches. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/128 "2012-11-08T12:56:31Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Also, I know this is probably opening a HUGE can of worms and derailing this thread before it ever learned to crawl, but saying the Church spent money on prop 8 is not true. > [Mormonism and politics/California Proposition 8/Questions and myths - FAIR](http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_politics/California_Proposition_8/Questions_and_myths) I suppose one could believe unsupported comments by an anonymous poster, or one would believe someone with inside information. Perhaps the spokesperson of the church would be a good start. In an article in the New Your Time (it’s probably listed as an anti-Mormon source, which is why many Mormons wouldn’t dare read it) titled _[Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?pagewanted=1&_r=4)_ > [@](#): > > “We’ve spoken out on other issues, we’ve spoken out on abortion, we’ve spoken out on those other kinds of things,” said Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormons are formally called, in Salt Lake City. “But we don’t get involved to the degree we did on this.” > > The California measure, Proposition 8, was to many Mormons a kind of firewall to be held at all costs. > > “California is a huge state, often seen as a bellwether — this was seen as a very, very important test,” Mr. Otterson said. > > First approached by the Roman Catholic archbishop of San Francisco a few weeks after the California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, the Mormons were the last major religious group to join the campaign, and the final spice in an unusual stew that included Catholics, evangelical Christians, conservative black and Latino pastors, and myriad smaller ethnic groups with strong religious ties. > > Shortly after receiving the invitation from the San Francisco Archdiocese, the Mormon leadership in Salt Lake City issued a four-paragraph decree to be read to congregations, saying “the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan,” and urging members to become involved with the cause. > > “And they sure did,” Mr. Schubert said. > > Jeff Flint, another strategist with Protect Marriage, estimated that Mormons made up 80 percent to 90 percent of the early volunteers who walked door-to-door in election precincts. > > The canvass work could be exacting and highly detailed. Many Mormon wards in California, not unlike Roman Catholic parishes, were assigned two ZIP codes to cover. Volunteers in one ward, according to training documents written by a Protect Marriage volunteer, obtained by people opposed to Proposition 8 and shown to The New York Times, had tasks ranging from “walkers,” assigned to knock on doors; to “sellers,” who would work with undecided voters later on; and to “closers,” who would get people to the polls on Election Day. And also from the same article. > [@](#): > > On Oct. 28, Mr. Ashton, the grandson of the former Mormon president David O. McKay, donated $1 million. Mr. Ashton, who made his fortune as co-founder of the WordPerfect Corporation, said he was following his personal beliefs and the direction of the church. > > “I think it was just our realizing that we heard a number of stories about members of the church who had worked long hours and lobbied long and hard,” he said in a telephone interview from Orem, Utah. > > In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons. Prop 8 was defeated in a large part because of the Mormon church and the directives it made to its members. It is a sick organization. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/129 "2012-11-08T14:41:15Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > 2 Nephi 9:34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell. > > It’s all in the Book Of Mormon if you care to read it sometime, just as a exercise in curiosity not as any lame attempt of mine to get you to seriously consider the church. Well, _yeah._ But as the world’s most famous Mormon has been busily earning himself a place in hell, **by Mormon doctrine** , the Mormon church itself has been rather quiet about this fact, and of course Mormons supported Mitt Romney in this election by overwhelming margins. It’s one thing for them to officially ignore the election altogether, but if they’re going to mention Mitt’s candidacy, it’s a rather glaring omission for them to fail to make some acknowledgement of his having lied his ass off all year, and how that doesn’t exactly square with Mormon beliefs. So we’re talking a clear win of tribal loyalty over supposed tribal principles. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/130 "2012-11-08T15:24:42Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > [It’s apparently going to take a lot longer than 200 years.](http://www.lds.org/general-conference/speakers/2012/10?lang=eng) The last time they tried to diversity, [it didn’t go so well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee). ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/131 "2012-11-08T15:34:05Z")
Don’t you think public condemnation would be a breach of privacy, assuming he is being reprimanded for lying? A priest can’t blab about his congregants sins and neither can Church leaders. Also, Tokyo, all your quotes prove is that a large percentage of Mormons are conservative and have the belief that legal marriage is for a heterosexual monogamous relationship and they campaigned just like any American citizen is allowed to for whatever cause they believe in and want other people to vote for. I don’t personally agree with it because I am not threatened in my marriage by two consenting adults getting married and committed to each other legally. I think it makes complete sense, and I have shared this with my Bishop and friends in the church and I have not been reprimanded or excommunicated or shunned by my peers. What happened in California was probably way over the top and skirted the line of political propriety, but no one did any thing illegal. It was a hot button, highly emotionally charged issue and people are bound to get upset. Why some Mormons were particularly attacked for donating money and not the other mentioned groups is telling. Their actions were reprehensible, perhaps, but not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/132 "2012-11-08T15:44:29Z")
Nobody accused them of doing anything illegal. “Reprehensible” (your word there) is perfectly accurate, but it wasn’t just “some Mormons” operating on their own. The LDS church encouraged that reprehensible behavior. That makes it hard to respect the LDS church. Other groups who donated money were and are roundly condemned around here, but you started this thread about Mormons. If you start on about Focus on the Family, it’ll go pretty much the same way. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/133 "2012-11-08T15:51:39Z")
Can we please make the distinction between individual practitioners of a religion and the religion itself? Lumping all Mormons together is stupid, false, and discriminatory. I belong to the Church, but I am an individual with in it, I am not the Church. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/134 "2012-11-08T16:03:07Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Their actions were reprehensible, perhaps, but not illegal. And these reprehensible actions were urged by their church. But at least your church isn’t _currently_ urging its members to do something illegal. That’s quite an improvement, and almost something to be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/135 "2012-11-08T16:04:31Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Can we please make the distinction between individual practitioners of a religion and the religion itself? Lumping all Mormons together is stupid, false, and discriminatory. I belong to the Church, but I am an individual with in it, I am not the Church. You first. In your OP, you posted a statement _made by the church_, and you were then very defensive when that statement was attacked. Few, if any, posters have attacked you individually, but a lot of people have gone after the LDS church as an organization. Since being a Mormon is a large part of your identity (I’m presuming here, but I don’t think I’m wrong), you feel like you’ve been personally attacked. You haven’t. You’ve said that your church does things you don’t approve approve of, but I (again) presume that you think it does more harm than good on the whole. Others, including me, don’t. While you work to change the church from the inside, we’ll work against it from the outside. I’d love it if you and other Mormons like you could get the LDS church to change, but I doubt you can. Unless and until you do, I want to reduce the influence that the church has on state-by-state and nationwide discussions of abortion, same-sex marriage, and other issues. That means calling out the LDS church a bigoted organization when it acts like one. I’m sorry you feel like you’re being attacked, but I’m not going to stop. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/136 "2012-11-08T16:13:28Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You’ve said that your church does things you don’t approve approve of, but I (again) presume that you think it does more harm than good on the whole. . No, I don’t think that. Why would I belong to something I thought did more harm than good? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/137 "2012-11-08T16:14:25Z")
Sorry, that was supposed to be the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/138 "2012-11-08T16:15:19Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Sorry, that was supposed to be the other way around. Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up 🙂 Plus I admire your conviction in fighting for what you believe in, so no offense taken. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/139 "2012-11-08T16:24:31Z")
And gays can get married in your church right AprilR? So long as they marry a member of the opposite sex. At least, that was your position in a previous discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226/140 "2012-11-08T16:28:34Z")
Can I suggest that this thread be closed or moved? It has become less and less about a statement released by the LDS Church and more and more a statement on Mormonism in general. Plenty of places for that discussion, but not here, I don’t think. And I am sorry that my first post contributed to the derailment but in my defense at least my hijack did have to do with Prop 8 which was a ballot initiative in an Election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lds-churchs-statement-on-the-us-elections/640226.md?page=8)