# The least subtle film ever made **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612 "2013-03-22T04:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/61 "2013-03-22T22:06:13Z")
No contest: _The Trial of Billy Jack_. To cash in on the success of the original, they just tripled everything–including the length–and the points that were laid on with a trowel in the first were laid on with a steamshovel in the sequel. The National Guard doesn’t just fire on students, they shoot a little kid. Not just a little kid, but a little _crippled_ kid. Not just a little crippled kid, but a little crippled kid _holding a bunny rabbit_ … And every scene does that! ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/62 "2013-03-22T22:19:10Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I disagree about this one. A movie where it’s unclear exactly who is good and who is bad, can’t be the least subtle film. Shosanna is obviously good, but some of the inglorious bastards are on the line. The German military guy that they captured was noble in a way. Zoller and Landa both had some redeeming traits. Contrary to some opinions, I think American made movies about WWII bend over backward to be nuanced and show multiple sides. They are positively genteel compared to many European movies which really go to the edge in their portrayal of Germans - films like [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/) and [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070592/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/63 "2013-03-22T22:59:37Z")
What with all this talk of Nazis, how about the CAPTAIN AMERICA movie? Despite repeatedly being stamped 4F, he makes it into basic training by indicating that he doesn’t want to kill anyone but is just, y’know, anti-bully. That’s why he’s in position to earn super-powers by selflessly throwing himself on a grenade to save his buddies; as is helpfully spelled out, the serum only amplifies one’s character, which is why the bad guy who got dosed is hideously deformed, and why a good man’s compassion gets mirrored by good looks. How bad is the bad guy? Even the Nazis are shocked – _“Berlin is on this map!”_ – upon realizing Germany is as much a target as NYC. _“His target is everywhere!”_ But our POW-liberating hero and his happy scrappy multiethnic band of brothers come through and the day is saved, with Captain Humble Politeness unhesitatingly sacrificing himself to foil a last-ditch attack on endangered civilians. Subtlety? Who needs subtlety? Chris Evans plays it straighter than Christopher Reeve played Superman, which I didn’t actually think was possible. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/64 "2013-03-22T23:13:53Z")
Well. in _Captain America_, the “too small” Chris Evans was, in reality, about the correct size and weight of an average American GI coming off of ten+ years of Great Depression dieting, so exactitude and logic weren’t things they were going for. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/65 "2013-03-23T04:47:33Z")
The Invention of Lying. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/66 "2013-03-23T05:33:57Z")
[Nude Nuns With Big Guns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_Nuns_with_Big_Guns). What’s my prize? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/67 "2013-03-23T06:08:41Z")
When creators of singing poo find a nationalistic voice, the answer is Team America for least subtle film. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/68 "2013-03-23T06:21:12Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I thought the original **Red Dawn** was about as subtle as a sledgehammer, with its realization – however convoluted – of jingoist ideas and sayings. The one that made me actually laugh was when an invading soldier actually _does_ Pry a Gun from a gun owner’s Cold Dead Hand. The movie was silly, no question. But there was a moment when the Wolverines were about to kill the kid that was forced to swallow the tracking device and the others were saying “if we do kill him what makes them different than us!” and the guy shots and says “we live here”. I don’t think current Americans, as a culture, understand real sacrifice. It’s great that they don’t have to learn it. But as silly as that movie was it showed a small window into the minds of what other nationalities are experiencing even today. To American’s invasion is so absurd that any possibility in even a movie is obnoxious, but the point was (in a 1984 movie) to get Americans to understand occupation. So yeah, not a good movie, but as subtle as it’s subject could be. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/69 "2013-03-23T06:31:16Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > When creators of singing poo find a nationalistic voice, the answer is Team America for least subtle film. Ok, that’s an excellent choice. It’s not _Nude Nuns…_, but what is? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/70 "2013-03-23T16:32:00Z")
_Starship Troopers_ deserves at least Honorable Mention. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/71 "2013-03-23T17:03:30Z")
As much as I adore Dax Shepard, Kristen Bell and their beliefs / politics, the movie _Hit and Run_ was so abashedly shameless in its heavy-handed approach to liberal causes that it made me uncomfortable and embarrassed for them. Geez, guys, beating someone over the head like that just makes you look like a knee jerk reactionary. I can only hope their subtlety and nuance improves with age. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/72 "2013-03-23T17:09:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What with all this talk of Nazis, how about the CAPTAIN AMERICA movie? What about it? There are no Nazis in _Captain America_. It’s all “Hydra” troops. I just rewatched this and can’t recall - is there a single swastika or authentic Nazi emblem anywhere in it? Or SS flashes? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/73 "2013-03-24T08:12:13Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > What about it? There are no Nazis in _Captain America_. It’s all “Hydra” troops. My point is, we’re shown how bad Hydra is: the Allies and the Axis agree that these are bad guys. (How bad? They heil with both hands!) There’s no ambiguity. There’s no subtlety. There is only – VILLAINY! Which must be OPPOSED! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/74 "2013-03-24T08:43:40Z")
Which was perfectly fine. IMHO, that was the right approach for that specific movie to take. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/75 "2013-03-24T08:57:54Z")
Seriously, it’s _Captain America_. If it weren’t stark black & white FREEDOM vs TYRANNY it would have completely missed its mark. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/76 "2013-03-24T11:58:03Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > What about it? There are no Nazis in _Captain America_. It’s all “Hydra” troops. > > I just rewatched this and can’t recall - is there a single swastika or authentic Nazi emblem anywhere in it? Or SS flashes? I happened to watch the Captain America movie last night. Hydra was presented as the research division of the Nazis, though as the movie progressed, they sort of broke away to do their own thing free of Hitler’s influence. There were plenty of shots of swastikas during the infodump at the beginning, where the bad guy’s history was being introduced. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/77 "2013-03-24T18:36:59Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Absolutely. > > But Spielberg chose to make the film. Have you seen the movie? Because the Japanese are really not so bad. The boy idolizes the Japanese pilots and never stops. He makes friends and becomes disenchanted with the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/78 "2013-03-24T20:45:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I thought the original **Red Dawn** was about as subtle as a sledgehammer, with its realization – however convoluted – of jingoist ideas and sayings. The one that made me actually laugh was when an invading soldier actually _does_ Pry a Gun from a gun owner’s Cold Dead Hand. Possibly a little OT, but does anyone else think this would be a good scene for a hypothetical Schwartzenegger movie…? **Arnie** : I need your gun. **Guy** : You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. _( **Arnie** breaks **guy** ’s neck and picks up the gun. As he does so, he briefly checks **guy** ’s hand.)_ **Arnie** : Huh. Still warm. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/79 "2013-03-24T20:52:19Z")
> [@MacSpon](#): > > Possibly a little OT, but does anyone else think this would be a good scene for a hypothetical Schwartzenegger movie…? > > **Arnie** : I need your gun. > **Guy** : You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. > _( **Arnie** breaks **guy** ’s neck and picks up the gun. As he does so, he briefly checks **guy** ’s hand.)_ > **Arnie** : Huh. Still warm. There is almost the same scene in Men in Black, when the alien tells the farmer to drop his gun, and the farmer uses the famous phrase. The alien responds, “That is acceptable”, kills him, and uses his skin as a disguise. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612/80 "2013-03-24T20:56:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > There is almost the same scene in Men in Black, when the alien tells the farmer to drop his gun, and the farmer uses the famous phrase. The alien responds, “That is acceptable”, kills him, and uses his skin as a disguise. True, and I thought about that, but it’s not so much of an Arnold-type quip. It’s a lot more clever, for one thing. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-least-subtle-film-ever-made/653612.md?page=5)