# The legacy of "The Times Square Kissing Sailor" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** photo\ **Created:** [August 15, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527 "2012-08-15T03:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Penrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71e660/32.png) [@Penrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penrose)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/1 "2012-08-15T03:40:29Z")
Today was V-J Day, which produced the iconic photo of a sailor celebrating the end of the war by kissing a nurse. The image still resonates and has been reenacted by zombies, vampires, The Watchmen, The Simpsons and many, many drunks. [Examples can be found here](http://news.usni.org/news-analysis/news/smooch-ended-world-war-ii) From the article: “On August 14, 1945, President Harry Truman took to the airwaves to announce that Japan had accepted the terms of surrender and that the war was over. The news sparked spontaneous celebrations across the United States, including in Times Square where photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt captured a joyous sailor kissing a passing nurse. First published in Life magazine as part of a pictorial titled Victory, Eisenstaedt’s V-J Day in Times Square has since become one of the most iconic images of the Second World War.” “Like Joe Rosenthal’s ‘Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima’, Eisenstaedt’s ‘V-J Day in Times Square’ has been endlessly copied, reenacted and parodied. [Here are examples of the photo’s impact on pop culture](http://news.usni.org/news-analysis/news/smooch-ended-world-war-ii)” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/2 "2012-08-15T03:54:35Z")
Victory Day is still a holiday here in RI (and HI too). One of our residents (not sure of his current status) is the most likely, but not conclusively decided, man in the picture. It’s just one of those iconic photographs that tells so much about its time. And it may be a symbol of joyous relief in victory for a long time to come. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/3 "2012-08-15T03:58:28Z")
Interesting follow-up here–they finally seem to have located the right pair. 🙂 [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33816\_162-57491471/sailor-nurse-from-iconic-vj-day-photo-reunited/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33816_162-57491471/sailor-nurse-from-iconic-vj-day-photo-reunited/) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/4 "2012-08-15T04:01:55Z")
Yeah, that’s George. But there are other claimants still. The[Wiki Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square#Identity_of_the_kissers)says George was identified by the Naval War College. But he’s from Rhode Island, so of course they would say that 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/5 "2012-08-15T04:02:32Z")
That’s a pretty cool link (in the OP, with various recreations of the iconic image). As a married guy, I note with interest the bit about the sailor actually being out on a date with his future wife, who appears over his shoulder in the picture and is not the kissee. Apparently, she was a good sport about it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/6 "2024-03-06T00:26:36Z")
> Secretary [Denis McDonough](https://apnews.com/hub/denis-mcdonough) acted hours after a copy of a memo from a VA assistant undersecretary requesting the photo’s removal from all VA health facilities was shared on social media. **The memo had said the photo “depicts a non-consensual act” and is inconsistent with the department’s sexual harassment policy.** > **[An iconic WWII photo showing a nonconsensual kiss was almost banned from...](https://apnews.com/article/times-square-kiss-photo-veterans-affairs-memo-b24d5dba6930be867e9ac1be6dff16e5)** > > The Veterans Affairs secretary is reversing a department memo that aimed to ban VA displays of the iconic “V-J Day in Times Square” photograph showing a Navy sailor kissing a strange woman on the streets of New York at the end of World War II. [![](https://www.history101.nyc/system/carrierwave/evo/449/watermark_1024_1.1945-RETOUCHED-Kissed-in-Times-Square-3384x3516.jpg) ](https://www.history101.nyc/system/carrierwave/evo/449/watermark_1024_1.1945-RETOUCHED-Kissed-in-Times-Square-3384x3516.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/7 "2024-03-06T01:40:02Z")
I never before noticed the sailor pinning the nurse with his left arm like that. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/8 "2024-03-06T02:33:18Z")
Yes, apparently the “nurse” (I believe she was actually a dental assistant) was not amused by being ambushed like this, although she had to go along to get along. Everything the Greatest Generation did was o.k., right? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/9 "2024-03-06T03:08:46Z")
Right. This was a situation not much different than that soccer coach thing. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/10 "2024-03-07T14:33:42Z")
Well, except one was _We won a soccer game!_ and one was _I don’t have to go back and maybe die when my leave is over!_ But yeah, non-consensual is non-consensual. Full disclosure: I haven’t seen the soccer coach one, and I don’t really _know_ what it’s about. It’s just a wild guess on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/11 "2024-03-07T14:35:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Full disclosure: I haven’t seen the soccer coach one, and I don’t really _know_ what it’s about. It’s just a wild guess on my part. > [@When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844): > > This is being discussed in [The Game Room](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/womens-world-cup-2023/986333/446), but I was wondering if it might merit broader discussion and a thread of its own. [This took place](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klGN4lvgWdM) during a post-game celebration. I will not describe it in words to allow each of you to view it free of any context provided by me.) The man [has been accused of sexual assault and coercion](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/luis-rubiales-kiss-sexual-assault-b2408051.html) with a potential penalty of 1 to 4 years in jail. I don’t know anything about the 2 people involved, or the history of women’s soccer in Spain or elsewhere, but that b… ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/12 "2024-03-07T14:42:40Z")
Here’s an article on The Kiss from a few years ago: > **[Perspective | WWII’s most iconic kiss wasn’t romantic — it was terrifying](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/02/22/wwiis-most-iconic-kiss-wasnt-romantic-it-was-assault/)** > > Women feared it, the law forbade it, so why did Americans romanticize the drunken assault? Of course the right wing is very upset that anyone wouldn’t want to celebrate that photo of an assault. > **[Woke VA officials ban iconic WWII kiss photo over ‘values’ — and are forced...](https://nypost.com/2024/03/05/us-news/some-woke-veterans-affairs-bigs-ban-iconic-ww-ii-kissing-photo-from-bldgs-prompting-boss-to-reverse-edict/)** > > “Let me be clear: This image is not banned from VA facilities — and we will keep it in VA facilities,” Veteran Affairs Secretary Denis McDonough wrote on X. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/13 "2024-03-07T14:50:53Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Right. This was a situation not much different than that soccer coach thing. Except for taking place 75 years earlier. There’s a lot of things we don’t do now that were commonplace 75 years ago. The soccer coach should have realized that, it’s unfair to liken this man back then to someone now who is expected to know better and adhere to social standards that did not exist then. That’s not to justify the action of either man, simply to put those actions in reasonable perspective. Such behavior was not regularly condemned 75 years ago but is now, that’s the lesson to be taken. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/14 "2024-03-07T14:51:24Z")
“Forced”…heckuva word choice there. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/15 "2024-03-07T14:53:02Z")
And not one that I used? (ETA, I see that’s from the headline.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/16 "2024-03-07T15:16:30Z")
Seventy five years ago it was not OK to grab and kiss a woman. There is a reason old films are filled with women slapping men for doing such a thing. I’m trying to think of a time when its been OK to grab and kiss a woman without some form of consent. The problem being that before women were people, they were some other man’s property - her father, her husband, her brother - and you didn’t take liberties with someone else’s property. And, in fact, women will tell you that there are still men who feel entitled to you unless you can state you belong to some other man - “I have a boyfriend” is still used to get out of unwanted attention. If you read the WaPo piece above, you’ll see that following the close of the war, this behavior was fairly common, and was tolerated due to what our “brave young boys” had been through. But tolerated for a few days at the end of the war isn’t the same as “not regularly condemned.” Its a little like rioting after your team wins the Superbowl and torching someone’s car - you are probably going to get away with it - that isn’t the same as it being OK. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/17 "2024-03-07T15:19:33Z")
I never said it was OK. I am saying times have changed and precisely that the photo and the historic reaction to it illustrate a change for the better over time. That’s how to relate it to the recent soccer coach incident mentioned in the post I was responding too. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/18 "2024-03-07T15:20:22Z")
I never gave that pic much thought, and filed it away with the flag raising on Iwo Jima. But, yeah, it’s pretty bad. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/19 "2024-03-07T17:45:09Z")
My relatives actually got drunk on V-J Day but my great-mother had her own still. 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527/20 "2024-03-07T18:22:48Z")
It’s not “woke.” “Woke” would be some manifesto proclaiming that the Allied victory in WWII was merely a victory for the Patriarchy, no different than if the Axis had won, and that kiss was only a matter of degrees different from the Soviets assaults on German women and girls. It was wrong but not recognized as a non-consensual kiss at the time. Now we know so now we should do the right thing. That’s not “woke,” it’s just common decency. Or if you want to explain it as errant exuberance, no real harm, then there’s an action described by Anthony Burgess in **A Vision of Battlements** during a post-VE celebration, in the same spirit as the kiss, even less harmful, but just as unacceptable as a memorial A drunken British soldier stands on the bar, urinates into his pint, and downs it in one go [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legacy-of-the-times-square-kissing-sailor/631527.md?page=2)