# The legality of deterring mailbox baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646 "2011-08-22T12:24:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/81 "2011-08-23T18:17:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > That covers boxes in the right-of-way, in the “city platted proper.” So presumably their carriers walk right up to the doors to leave mail in a box on the building, or to put it through a slot. (It can’t be a _pick up your own mail at the post office_ community, or there’d be no reason for anyone to put up a box.) That’s what UK postmen do. I always wondered what the little metal boxes were for when I watched American movies as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/82 "2011-08-23T18:58:17Z")
“Attractive nuisance” - there’s the story of the engineering students who put a concrete-filled pumpkin just off the road on halloween. Predictable consequences, but no injuries (unless you count the car). ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/83 "2011-08-23T19:18:56Z")
Acsenray says, “The law isn’t going to let you dick around with these semantic games.” IANAL but it seems to me that this is exactly how lawyers and appellate court judges make their living - dicking around with semantics and the meanings of the “framers” or intent of the legislatures, etc. While I agree that these vandals deserve what they get, I also agree that foreseeable harm would put the cement block guy in a bad spot. Just put a big sign on your (functional) superbox saying “If you hit me with a bat you will be sorry”. Big letters, lighted, several languages and set up the cameras. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/84 "2011-08-23T19:38:34Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Acsenray says, “The law isn’t going to let you dick around with these semantic games.” IANAL but it seems to me that this is exactly how lawyers and appellate court judges make their living - dicking around with semantics and the meanings of the “framers” or intent of the legislatures, etc. While I agree that these vandals deserve what they get, I also agree that foreseeable harm would put the cement block guy in a bad spot. Just put a big sign on your (functional) superbox saying “If you hit me with a bat you will be sorry”. Big letters, lighted, several languages and set up the cameras. WeaselLawyer : “Your Honor, that sign was basically the legal equivalent of a double or even triple-dog dare! My clients had NO choice but to strike the mailbox.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/85 "2011-08-23T20:28:30Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The brick \*\*\*\*house mailboxes are standard in our area. Ours is about 2’ wide & 3’ deep at the base. The top is about eye level. > > Somebody hit one down the street. It turns out that despite looking pretty substantial, it only had 1 or 2 courses of bricks below grade. There certainly wasn’t a building-grade footing under it. It tipped over & mostly shattered into a pile of bricks. > > I never saw the car, but I’m sure the front was pretty bunged up. But no way was it like hitting a tree of the same size. Cosmetic damage, maybe an airbag deployment. But not a split-down-the-middle car & critically injured people. Yeah, just because something’s made of brick doesn’t make it indestructible. After my wife’s miscarriage, we went away for the weekend, and when we got back, we found a pile of broken brick where our mailbox used to be. Sure, it looks like a sturdy 2’x2’ brick pillar, but it’s hollow on the inside, not solid. A car impact just shoves it right over and shatters it. And of course we weren’t in town so we didn’t see anything, and neither did anyone else. Great week, that was. It cost about $200 to put up a new one. Fortunately, it was easy to match the brick. I screwed three reflectors to the side of the new one to improve the visibility; we’re on a corner lot, and on the weekend the mailbox was hit, the streetlight was out, which I’m sure contributed to the crash. The new box has lasted 5 years now, far outliving its predecessor. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/86 "2011-08-23T20:32:01Z")
I wouldn’t think that putting a cement filled mailbox would be an intentional tort as it requires the supervening criminal actions of a person to cause the harm. I do think however that, at least under the laws of this state, the only duty owed to a trespasser is that one cannot be willful, wanton, and reckless. I think that a concrete filled mailbox would fit that bill. An extra sturdy functional one would not. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/87 "2011-08-24T01:11:25Z")
When I was younger, our mailbox was destroyed with dynamite. I wonder how many of these “extra sturdy” mailboxes could withstand that. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/88 "2011-08-24T02:25:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > WeaselLawyer : “Your Honor, that sign was basically the legal equivalent of a double or even triple-dog dare! My clients had NO choice but to strike the mailbox.” The idea that any crap argument a desperate lawyer comes up with will actually succeed is a movie and tv trope, reinforced by the squeaky wheel phenomenon (you only hear about the 1% of cases where the judge or jury decides something stupid). The rest of the time the judge or jury laughs at the dumbshit excuse and finds against the argument. > [@MikeF](#): > > Acsenray says, “The law isn’t going to let you dick around with these semantic games.” IANAL but it seems to me that this is exactly how lawyers and appellate court judges make their living - dicking around with semantics and the meanings of the “framers” or intent of the legislatures, etc. Lawyers dick around with semantic games in instances where the law is ambiguous and there isn’t any other option but to try to argue fine distinctions, legislative intent, etc. Workaday law, dealt with day in and day out by lawyers and courts, is mostly based on well known principles. You perceive different because it’s all too dull to form the plot of a movie or tv show or be reported in the papers. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/89 "2021-06-22T13:44:17Z")
> **[Driver sues Huron Co. homeowner after fortified mailbox causes truck to flip;...](https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/driver-sues-huron-co-homeowner-after-fortified-mailbox-causes-truck-to-flip-oh-supreme-court-reviewing)** > > Justices with the Ohio Supreme Court heard oral arguments Wednesday over a mailbox post dispute between a homeowner and a crash victim. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/90 "2021-06-22T13:45:11Z")
There’s also a DM article on it: > **[Homeowner who fortified his mailbox sued by driver who is paralyzed](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9712217/Homeowner-fortified-mailbox-concrete-vandalism-sued-paralyzed-driver.html)** > > Cletus Snay was driving to work in December 2016 when his Ford pick-up truck crashed into Matthew Burr's mailbox after losing traction on black ice in Bellevue, Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/91 "2021-06-22T15:27:24Z")
The Daily Mail article includes the detail that the truck tumbled for 130 feet after striking the mailbox. That’s after a considerable deceleration from the mailbox impact, as well as whatever deceleration happened as a result of the driver attempting to mitigate the accident before the impact. It’s going to be really hard for the driver to argue that he wasn’t driving recklessly, and that was the cause of the accident. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/92 "2021-06-22T16:46:04Z")
This bump is just in time for the [opening credits](https://youtu.be/ZxvDiXkcVNQ) for the new season of _Rick and Morty_. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/93 "2021-06-23T02:21:24Z")
130 feet isn’t really so much, about 45 steps. The claim was that he hit black ice, so not much mitigation would have happened. The speed limit is 55, although I could not find anything that stated an estimate of his actual speed. But a lot can go wrong at 55 real fast. This is the scale showing the distance (the driver veered off his own side of the road to hit the mailbox). [![](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/50ocjpcuqrws0b3/Young%20St.JPG?dl=0) ](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/50ocjpcuqrws0b3/Young%20St.JPG?dl=0) The plaintiff lost, then lost on appeal. The majority opinion was that Burr has no liability for objects on his property if a vehicle strikes them after leaving the traveled portion of the road, which is a trespass. One judge dissented that although the mailbox was not the cause of the accident, Burr could have foreseen the hazard of this construction. It looks like another appeal is pending. But the precedents cites by the lower courts refer to state supreme court decisions so I don’t think his chances are good. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/94 "2021-06-24T05:13:08Z")
If I were to fill my mailbox with concrete, and then place a large sign on it saying “DANGER - DO NOT HIT”, would that make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/95 "2021-06-24T05:55:13Z")
Legal Eagle did a video a few years ago (I.e. after the OP but before zombification) about about the case in the OP, and it’s definitely worth a watch. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/bV9ppvY8Nx4/maxresdefault.jpg "The Shotgun Booby Trap (The Case Of)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV9ppvY8Nx4) ---
**Author:** ![Chickenwrangler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chickenwrangler/32/91_2.png) [@Chickenwrangler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chickenwrangler)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/96 "2021-06-24T11:27:39Z")
As someone said “The Law is an Ass” [https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-law-is-an-ass.html](https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-law-is-an-ass.html) Similar case in the UK where the home owner ended up in jail and had to pay the intruder for “Loss of earnings” because he couldn’t go work due to his injuries. As I said “The Law is an Ass” ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/97 "2021-06-24T15:32:37Z")
> [@Chickenwrangler](#): > > Similar case in the UK where the home owner ended up in jail and had to pay the intruder for “Loss of earnings” because he couldn’t go work due to his injuries. What case? Did he booby trap his home? You’re a little light on details… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/98 "2021-06-24T15:38:14Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I dare say that bodily harm is reasonably foreseeable in this case. However, the harm only happens because you’ve made an unusually strong mailbox; it’s not as if you dug a pit in your yard and lined it with punjee sticks. Not if the box is filled with concrete. Then it is not longer a mailbox, it is a trap. Just putting in a very tough mailbox that does what a mailbox is supposed to is fine. Building a trap to “foil those damn kids” is not. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/99 "2021-06-24T15:40:43Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > One judge dissented that although the mailbox was not the cause of the accident, Burr could have foreseen the hazard of this construction. I would expect that there would need to be laws on the books regarding objects placed by the homeowner in the right-of-way. It shouldn’t be up to the individual homeowners–who don’t have engineering backgrounds–to evaluate the risks of placing something in the ROW. Maybe if they put those “Czech hedgehog” anti-tank metal barriers along the ROW it would be grossly negligent since that is clearly a very risky hazard, but a mailbox is a normal item placed by the homeowner in the ROW. If the mailbox needs to meet certain breakaway requirements, that should be spelled out in the law and not left up to the homeowner to think of on their own. It seems like a homeowner should be able to build something in the ROW that is the equivalent of an oak tree trunk. If there was a tree there, the outcome would have likely been the same. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646/100 "2021-06-24T15:58:49Z")
Trap, only purpose is trap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-legality-of-deterring-mailbox-baseball/593646.md?page=6)