# The letter K in Latin kalendae **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203 "2001-01-09T20:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/1 "2001-01-09T20:04:02Z")
To this day, the Romance languages and Irish avoid using the letter\* K\*. They always use _C_ (or “qu” in certain cases) to spell the /k/ sound. The reason for this is that the ancient Romans decided not to use _K_ in Latin, substituting _C_ instead. The Romans first adapted their alphabet from the Etruscans, who used a modified Greek alphabet, with _K_, of course, for the /k/ sound. The Etruscan language did not distinguish between voiced and unvoiced consonants, so the Etruscan _gamma_ could be pronounced /k/. The Romans perpetuated this habit, and modified the gamma by curving it some more until it looked like C. Then they had to add an extra stroke to distinguish the letter for the /g/ sound: G. Early on, there was a Latin spelling convention to use _C_ before e and i, _K_ before a and o, and _Q_ before u. This three-way division would actually be useful to distinguish the palatal, velar, and postvelar articulations. But since there was no phonemic distinction between them in Latin, the distinction served no purpose. So they took to using _C_ for the /k/ sound in all positions, except when _Qu_ was followed by a vowel. The letter _K_ still did not die out; they kept using it for one word, and one word only: _Kalendae_, the name for the first day of each month. I wonder why??? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/2 "2001-01-09T21:28:35Z")
WAG: there is a word in Latin “calendae” (pronounced salenday, of course) that has a different meaning – perhaps something rude you wouldn’t want to get confused about Or, this word being generally exclusive to Roman accountants, they may have found it handy to have the “k” for abbreviations in their ledgers, (akin to the scoring of baseball where, oddly, “k” stands for strike as “s” stands for something else IIRC), if they had another word for which “c” would be the obvious abbreviation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/3 "2001-01-09T22:09:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*WAG: there is a word in Latin “calendae” (pronounced salenday, of course) \*\* Why would “calendae” be pronounced “salenday”? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/4 "2001-01-09T22:27:04Z")
Oops. Reverse that. The “c” should be hard like a K, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/5 "2001-01-09T22:40:39Z")
I was under the impression that the letter K was only used by the Romans with certain words imported from Greek, and that kalenda was one of those. I don’t think any “native” Latin words used K- instead, as mentioned in the OP, C was used (and was always a hard C). Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/6 "2001-01-10T02:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arjuna34 \* > \*\*I was under the impression that the letter K was only used by the Romans with certain words imported from Greek, and that kalenda was one of those. I don’t think any “native” Latin words used K- instead, as mentioned in the OP, C was used (and was always a hard C). > \*\* Arjuna, I believe you are quite correct. C’s were, btw, all originally pronounced like K’s in Latin. Only after about the 1st century BCE did the Latin speakers begin to pronounce ci and ce like si and se. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/7 "2001-01-10T03:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arjuna34 \* > **I was under the impression that the letter K was only used by the Romans with certain words imported from Greek, and that kalenda was one of those. I don’t think any “native” Latin words used K- instead, as mentioned in the OP, C was used (and was always a hard C).** No, all the Greek loanwords with _kappa_ were spelled with _C_ in Latin. All of them, without exception. The word _kalendae_ is native Latin, not a Greek loanword. The suggestion that it was a useful abreviation for bookkeepers or whatever sounds like it may be plausible. The reason for the OP is that if the Romans hadn’t kept using the letter _K_ for just this one word, it would have long ago disappeared into oblivion and we wouldn’t have it today. Look how useful it is (for non-Romance languages), especially in phonetic transcriptions where you need to unambiguously indicate the /k/ sound; “c” is hopeless for that, since it has taken on so many different pronunciations: /k/ in cat /s/ in celery /t$/ in Pacino /ts/ (as used in Slavic languages, Hungarian, and Pinyin) /ð/ (as used in Fijian) /dZ/ (as used in Turkish) ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/8 "2001-01-10T03:46:10Z")
Isn’t **kalendae** from **calare** , to call, which came from the Greek **kaleo** , I call? According to this [website](http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/classics/latalph.htm), the name Kaeso was one of the few words with a K in Latin, although I’ve never heard of it. That doesn’t really answer WHY they kept it K- habit, maybe, since Kal. may have been ingrained as the abbreviation on the Roman calendars? Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/9 "2001-01-10T13:08:10Z")
_Kaeso_ was a rare _praenomen_ that was, IIRC, used only by the Julii (Livy offers a few examples in his first few books). Incidentially, notice that the _matres lectiones_ (letters often used to represent vowels) in the Phoenecian alphabet were _’aleph_, _het_, _yod_, _‘ayin_, and _vav_. In the Greek alphabet, they became _alpha_, _eta_, _iota_, _o_ (later _omikron_, “little ‘o’”, to distinguish it from _omega_, “big ‘o’”), and _upsilon_. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/10 "2001-01-10T13:19:35Z")
According to the excellent etymologies in the first edition of the _American Heritage Dictionary_, the Latin word _kalendae_ comes from the Proto-Indo-European root \ ***kel-** (also \ ***kele-** ), ‘to shout’. From this root also come Germanic _hlowan_ \> English _low_ (in the sense of animal cry), Latin _clamare_ ‘to call’, Greek _kalein_ (that’s the verb you cited, but it isn’t the source of _kalendae_), Latin _clarus_ ‘clear’, and lots of other words. The etymology for _kalendae_ says: “Suffixed form _kal-and-_ in Latin _kalendae_, the calends, the first day of the month when it was publicly announced on which days the nones and ides of that month would fall.” The _Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology_ says it “derived from \*_calere_, variant of _calare_ call out, proclaim, cognate with Greek _kalein_ to call; see LOW, v. make the sound of a cow.” Note: cognate does not mean derived from. There is also the etymology for the word calendar, from Medieval Latin _kalendarium_ which was “a moneylender’s account book (because the monthly interest was due on the calends).” This lends weight to your bookkeeper’s abbreviation theory. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/11 "2001-01-10T13:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The Romans perpetuated this habit, and modified the gamma by curving it some more until it looked like C. Then they had to add an extra stroke to distinguish the letter for the /g/ sound: G. Well no, not quite. The archaic Etruscan alphabet features a character used for c/g (/k/, /g/), this is basically our c, but facing left (Etruscan usually runs right to left). The characters for b, d, g were all dropped early, along with o. However, for /k/, archaic Etruscan uses different letters dpending on the following vowel: ka, ce, ci, qu. Around the 5th century B.C.E, the orthography was simplified, and C used in all positions for /k/. In Latin, because gamma had already been used for /k/and /g/ in Etruscan, Spurius Carvilius Rufa invented g in the third century B.C.E.by adding a stroke to C. This was taken from: The World’s Writing Systems by Daniels and Bright. ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/12 "2001-01-11T08:47:08Z")
Okay you all made me get up and look and I found this nice summary answer: From Andrew L. Sihler. _New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin_. NY, 1995. p.21. > [@](#): > > In the earliest Old Latin epigraphy, the symbols C (\<), K and Q were all employed for /k/ and /g/, the choice of symbol being determined by the vowel following: Q stood before rounded vowels (EQO “ego”), and K before A. This last detail is continue into the classical period in the few forms in which _k_ is retained, chiefly _kalendae_ “the Kalends”. Otherwise, the use of C spread at the expense of the other two letters. The persistence of Q in its single environment is hard to explain… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/13 "2001-01-11T12:44:52Z")
Yeah, and the persistence of _K_ in, like, two words is even harder to explain. If it weren’t for that, we would now know of _K_ only as a Greek letter, like theta or omega, used maybe by scientists if at all. ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/14 "2001-01-11T23:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*Yeah, and the persistence of _K_ in, like, two words is even harder to explain. If it weren’t for that, we would now know of _K_ only as a Greek letter, like theta or omega, used maybe by scientists if at all. \*\* Excellent point. I suppose K was saved by just the couple of abbreviations and later when it was again found to be useful in other languages. The prestige of Greek still may have influenced the process, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/15 "2024-02-06T07:34:07Z")
In a lot of languages, K represents different sounds aswell, especially Scandinavian languages. In Faroese, K before front vowels sounds like the English ch but with more aspiration. In Turkish, it makes a [c] sound (kind of like c in cute), before front vowels. In Azeri, it makes the sound of Turkish K before front vowels although word initially, it’s pronounced like the soft K in Norwegian, which is the ch in ich. In Icelandic, K before front vowels produces the sound of soft Turkish K but with aspiration. Finally, Swedish soft K is like the Sh sound but lighter though in the Finnish part of Swedish, it’s pronounced like a lighter ch sound. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/16 "2024-02-06T13:29:32Z")
K is a common letter in many Germanic languages, and English itself has plenty of words with that letter in them, most of them deriving from Germanic roots. So I doubt that the continued existence of K as a letter in English is a consequence of those two Latin words (I know a third one spelt with K in classical Latin, by the way: _Karthago_, the name of Rome’s chief adversary for much of the Republic). ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/17 "2024-02-06T15:02:15Z")
And can someone please explain why K makes atleast two sounds in many Scandinavian languages like Norwegian? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-letter-k-in-latin-kalendae/49203/18 "2024-02-06T17:06:27Z")
It’s the effect of palatalization before front vowels.