# The Libyan Revolution: Was it worth it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697 "2014-05-19T00:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/1 "2014-05-19T00:04:09Z")
Gaddafi was brutal, detached from reality, possibly crazy, and astonishingly arrogant even for a despot. But ever since they got rid of him, the Libyans have been fighting each other, off and on. The [aftermath of the civil war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_Libyan_Civil_War) has included a lot of [violence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-civil_war_violence_in_Libya), some between tribes, some perpetrated by Islamist extremists, some by Benghazi/Cyrenaica autonomists, some by Civil War militias who never disarmed and appear to have morphed into criminal gangs. And now [a rogue general has attacked Parliament,](http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140518/ml-libya-5cdb9593fa.html) blaming the government for allowing Islamist extremists to exert influence. Was it worth it? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/2 "2014-05-19T00:27:50Z")
I don’t have much of an opinion, because I think it was more of a “when” than an “if.” But it’s worth pointing out that the chaos in Libya has effectively re-armed a good chunk of the continent’s bad guys. For example, Libyan arms played a direct role in the overthrow of Mali’s democratically elected president and the ongoing violence there, including the destruction of irreplaceable world treasures in Timbuktu. Weapons tend to linger for decades, so no doubt we’ve just seen the beginning of this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/3 "2014-05-19T00:47:05Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t have much of an opinion, because I think it was more of a “when” than an “if.” But it’s worth pointing out that the chaos in Libya has effectively re-armed a good chunk of the continent’s bad guys. For example, Libyan arms played a direct role in the overthrow of Mali’s democratically elected president and the ongoing violence there, including the destruction of irreplaceable world treasures in Timbuktu. Weapons tend to linger for decades, so no doubt we’ve just seen the beginning of this. [shrug] Any Third World faction that has the money can probably find somebody somewhere to sell them weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/4 "2014-05-19T01:03:45Z")
I don’t think the Revolution is really over yet, so there isn’t an answer. It won’t be over until one type of government or another establishes something a bit stable. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/5 "2014-05-19T01:24:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] Any Third World faction that has the money can probably find somebody somewhere to sell them weapons. It’s not a matter of dispute that the recent stepping up of unrest in Mali is a direct result of massive amounts of weaponry looted from Libya. There has been tensions and occasional violence there forever, but none of it added up to much until Libya fell. The groups in question don’t have much money and don’t have much in the way of networks for weapons procurement. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/6 "2014-05-19T01:30:40Z")
I believe the law of unintended consequences was invented in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/7 "2014-05-19T02:01:25Z")
Where’s **bibliovore?** He’s Libyan, and our resident expert on all things Libyan. While the war was going on, he was consistently on the side of the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/8 "2014-05-19T02:31:44Z")
Quaddafi was going to die one way or another in the near future. Its possible there would’ve been a peaceful transition afterwards, but u don’t think its particularly likely. So I suspect the main effect of the revolution was just to push a lot of inevitable violence forward a few years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/9 "2014-05-19T13:54:38Z")
[Eeep!](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/05/18/renegade-libyan-general-says-parliament-suspended/9260289/) > [@](#): > > TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — Libya’s army chief has ordered the deployment of Islamist-led militias to the capital, a day after the storming of the parliament building in Tripoli by a renegade general’s troops. > > Monday’s development paves way for a possible showdown between the militias — which hail from Libya’s western and central regions — and the anti-Islamist troops allied with Gen. Khalifa Hifter, who staged the parliament attack Sunday and said they suspended the Islamist-dominated house, blaming it for empowering Islamic extremists. Sure, good idea, what could go wrong . . . ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/10 "2014-05-19T15:13:10Z")
Since this was Hillary’s war and not Cheney’s you won’t find much opposition to it here. Especially considering most are already on the record for supporting it at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/11 "2014-05-19T15:15:31Z")
I just wish the f\*\*\*ing idiots in the ME would realize without secular democracy they will live in squalor and be the laughing stock of the world ad infinitum. I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/12 "2014-05-19T19:37:37Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Quaddafi was going to die one way or another in the near future. Its possible there would’ve been a peaceful transition afterwards, but u don’t think its particularly likely. So I suspect the main effect of the revolution was just to push a lot of inevitable violence forward a few years. Would you have said the same thing about Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/13 "2014-05-19T20:00:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Since this was Hillary’s war and not Cheney’s . . . 😕 No, not Cheney’s, not Hillary’s, and not Obama’s. Libya’s. The rebellion was purely homegrown, and Libyans (and foreign mercs on Gaddafi’s side) did all the fighting on the ground; the Western powers only applied a little air support, just enough to keep the rebellion from getting crushed in its early stages. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/14 "2014-05-19T20:15:56Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I just wish the f\*\*\*ing idiots in the ME would realize without secular democracy they will live in squalor and be the laughing stock of the world ad infinitum. I’m not holding my breath. Yes, remind me of how many hundreds of thousands of Americans served on the front lines of Qadaffi’s overthrow? I don’t seem to remember. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/15 "2014-05-19T20:21:53Z")
Way too soon to tell, if every war was judged based on the results after two years of it ending no conflict was ever worth it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/16 "2014-05-19T21:08:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Way too soon to tell, if every war was judged based on the results after two years of it ending no conflict was ever worth it. The American Civil War would have passed that test easily. WWII would. Many wars would. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/17 "2014-05-19T21:24:50Z")
He seems to be the man who is the embodiment of the frustration at the governments inability to bring about stability. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/18 "2014-05-19T21:47:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > He seems to be the man who is the embodiment of the frustration at the governments inability to bring about stability. Who, General Hifter? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/19 "2014-05-19T22:04:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The American Civil War would have passed that test easily. WWII would. Many wars would. But doesn’t **Sitnam** ’s general point still stand? More often than not, the outcome of a war/revolution/transition is unclear until a few years after it begins. Hell, I was reading a bit about the Spanish transition to democracy the other day. As of 2014, no-one would doubt that Spain is a fully democratic country that will not be going back to its authoritarian past. But this outcome was not at all clear as late as 1981, 6 years after the start of its transition. Why should we expect Libya - a country that lacks Spain’s democratic history and instead has lots of natural resources to fight for - to go through all the necessary stages in the space of just 3 years? I have no way of knowing whether or not the Libyan revolution was worth it, not yet. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697/20 "2014-05-19T22:30:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The American Civil War would have passed that test easily. Err, no ? After The ACW the country was flat broke, owed money to many other countries to boot, earned the enmity of the most powerful nation on the face of the Earth and had jack squat to show for it except a piece of paper. That Free America lasted as long as it did is a miracle. One that owes a lot to France’s prowess at being a giant pain in England’s dick. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-libyan-revolution-was-it-worth-it/688697.md?page=2)