# The Lies of Sam Harris **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748 "2009-02-28T02:27:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/61 "2009-03-03T10:10:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Asserting that communism did not try to wipe out religion and impose atheism is a failure to deal with fact by reinterpreting history. No, it’s pointing out that you are falsely conflating atheism and Communism. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Was communism a religion as you assert? Only if one removes the distinction between religion and political theory or economic theory and call them the same thing. Politics and religion are not the same thing. If they were, presumably people who hated religion as evil would spend a similar amount of time tearing down all political efforts, and vice versa. What makes Communism a religion, or a close cousin is that it’s a false worldview based on faith. Being a worldview, being based on faith, and being false ( which effectively goes with being based on faith ) are pretty much what defines something as a religion. And I never said that all of politics or economics is a religion, that’s a strawman argument. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It seems that the apology of communism (which I don’t adhere to but don’t have anything particular against other than the brutality of its failures), namely that communism advances communism, not atheism, is the exact same relation to the argument that Christianity does not advocate war, greed, oppression, etc., except that Christianity in its tenets is actually against those things and requires treating each human being with dignity, where communism actually advocates atheism as a way of making the world a better place. Communism supports atheism for the same reason it opposes all labor unions not controlled by the Communist party; it doesn’t like competition. And Christianity is most certainly NOT opposed to “war, greed, oppression, etc”. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Common Christian values have never included capitalism, which is contrary to Christian principle and always has been. The dictatorial element of Christianity went out with the Reformation and has been on a slide ever since. Nonsense. Christianity has a long tradition of supporting and excusing greed & capitalism ( once capitalism showed up to be supported ). And Christianity’s “Dictatorial element” is still going strong; it’s just that Christianity has become too weak and divided to impose the kind of tyranny it used to. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Christianity has in fact had anti-Jewish elements: these have been taking a drubbing and dropped out of the teaching for the last 60 years, and the views on homosexuality that still exist in many Christian theologies have started on the same road. Yes, anti-Semitism has taken a beating for the last 60 years - AFTER the fall of the Nazis who you are trying to claim weren’t acting like Christians. And the fight against homophobia, much like the fight against anti-semitism is largely a fight against Christianity and other religions. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I am not a Catholic, so I do not speak for Catholicism, but to state that it was ever Catholic doctrine to support fascism is mistaken. :rolleyes: Oh, please. The Pope supported fascism leading up until WWII, and the Catholic Church helped Nazi war criminals escape to safety. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The suggestion that Christians supported the Holocaust is wrong. Murdering Jews has always been murder in Christian tradition. They supported the holocaust, they supported and in fact created the beliefs that led to it. And Christians have been killing Jews for centuries in pogroms; pretending that it’s some Nazi aberration is ridiculous. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No group can claim not to have murderers among it, that does not mean that the whole group are murderers or should be tainted with it. If it does, then official atheists, Mao and Stalin, give the evil prize to atheists and atheism. Except that Communism is in no way representative of atheism. But then that’s why you need to slander atheism by trying to smear it with the crimes of Communism; you don’t HAVE non-Communist mass murders and tyranny committed in the name of atheism to point at. So you will continue to pretend the two are the same. As opposed to religion, where mass murder and tyranny in it’s name are not at all restricted to one group. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > But most bad acts, even those that are done in the name of religion, only use religion in the same way a bank robber takes a hostage: to scare people away from shooting at the greed and cruelty hiding behind religion. Nonsense. Christianity, for example is in the position it is today because of it’s propensity towards mass murder and tyranny. People commit acts of evil and stupidity all the time because their religion demands it, not just using it as an excuse. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I will agree that the Catholic Church appears to have put the welfare of their hierarchy and priests above that of the children hurt by the molesters. It is not excusable and must be stopped (I believe it now is) and must be punished, and recompense made. But nobody disagrees except the extent of the recompense and the actual institution being punished. Again, nonsense. The Catholic Church, and many of it’s followers was **forced** into doing something about it. Plenty of people disagreed that something should be done. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The world and the lives of people in it are far, far more complex than simple declarative sentences of disdain can effectively deal with. But religion is not. It’s just garbage, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/62 "2009-03-03T11:30:49Z")
> **[Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set (Facts on File Library of World History):...](https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Wars-Facts-Library-History/dp/0816028516)** > > Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set (Facts on File Library of World History) \[Phillips, Charles, Axelrod PH.D., Alan, Phillips, Charles, Axelrod PH.D., Alan\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set... A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict.3 So, what atheists have considered to be “most” really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/63 "2009-03-03T13:24:31Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > [Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set (Facts on File Library of World History): Phillips, Charles, Axelrod, Alan: 9780816028511: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Wars-Library-World-History/dp/0816028516) > > A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict.3 So, what atheists have considered to be “most” really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. Which atheists say that ? And for that matter, a religious conflict doesn’t need to be involved for religion to either be responsible or contribute to war. Also, given that it’s a textbook it likely isn’t reliable. A textbook too critical of religion would be unpublishable in America. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/64 "2009-03-03T13:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=The Second Stone; I would disagree that Naziism was Christian in its nature. It was not. [snip] As evil as the crimes of the Nazis were, they were not done in the name of Christianity. How many times do we have to debunk this assertion? [QUOTE= A Hitler] . We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich] My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922 In the life of nations, what in the last resort decides questions is a kind of Judgment Court of God… Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills. -Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 13 April 1923 It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity. -Adolf Hitler, in an article headed “A New Beginning,” 26 Feb. 1925 The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life… The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933 And so on, almost ad infinitum… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/65 "2009-03-03T13:32:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > State imposed **Communism** , not atheism. It was all about Communism, not atheism, not matter what the believers like to claim. Of course, that’s because if the admit that Communism is a belief system all it’s own, they lose what’s pretty much their only tool to bash atheism and pretend it’s as bad as religion. > > And it’s not; as I’ve stated in the past, Communism is a non-theistic religion that refuses to call itself a religion. It’s a false and intolerant worldview that’s taken on faith; not so different than Christianity, except for being generally less fond of the end of the world. And it has acted as religions tend to do when they get power; imposed itself by force and slaughtered and oppressed unbelievers. > > Once again, garbage. Communism did what it did to advance Communism, not atheism. That’s why it stands out, and why the believers love to lie and equate Communism and atheism all the time. That way they can use Communism to bash atheism, as long as they carefully ignore the question of why it’s only the Communists who act like that. Not atheists in general. Where’s the gulags in the European nations where atheism is common ? The point about Communism isn’t to bash atheism or label it as evil. It’s to show that belief systems that promote no God belief are just as capable of atrocities as those that do. IMO it suggests that it isn’t God belief or religion per say that is the source of any evil acts any more than non belief was for Communism. It strikes me as saying that governments are evil and should be done away with because we can clearly see that it’s governments that have committed more atrocities than any other human construction. It’s so over simplified it’s ridiculous and substance free. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/66 "2009-03-03T13:40:01Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m not a great fan of the whole ‘religion is evil because evil things are done in its name’ line of thinking, but this sort of tu quoque seems an even worse argument to me. I mean, do you honestly not see a difference between a religion, a belief system _directly caused_ by the faith in the existence of god and subsequent needs to examine his properties, and ideologies (like communism etc.) that have no foundation in atheism at all? I’m not saying they don’t promote it, and in some cases even require it, but atheism doesn’t _lead to_ communism (or anything, really) the way faith in some higher being leads to religion. Correlation is not causation – for instance, there are people, including myself, arrive at atheism out of a sort of desire for frugality in one’s belief system, i.e. rejecting baseless and incomparable hypotheses about ephemeral realities, in accordance with some sort of baseline Occam’s razor, and those people will often tend to gravitate towards a scientific viewpoint in general, because that caters to the same need; this doesn’t mean that atheism is a reason for scientific thinking, though. On the other hand, religions _are_ a direct consequence of faith – faith in something is effectively already a religion in so far as that ‘something’ is defined by faith. From there, the establishing of that religion is a straight-forward (and necessary, or else the religion will die out) process of ‘fleshing out’ the object of faith – detailing god’s attributes, writing some mystical narratives, coming up with some rituals etc. > Faith cannot be faith alone, but absence of faith stands on its own. That’s an interesting point but keep in mind that lot’s of people believe and don’t practice any particular religion. Others may enjoy going to a service but have no need to embrace any particular doctrine. Now let’s add that some religions teach a rigid doctrine and some don’t. It’s true that out faith in basic ideas and teachings organized religion can and has been born. It’s also true that attempts to hold those ideas into a box of specific dogma and doctrine has continuously failed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/67 "2009-03-03T14:22:52Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The point about Communism isn’t to bash atheism or label it as evil. That’s EXACTLY the point. To pretend the two are identical so that believers can pretend that all atheists are monsters, without having to show any wrongdoings being committed by **non-Communist** atheists. That’s why it’s ALWAYS Communism in these discussions, with occasional lies about the Nazis being atheist. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > IMO it suggests that it isn’t God belief or religion per say that is the source of any evil acts any more than non belief was for Communism. In other words, let’s pretend that religion is responsible only for good. Or are you going to apply the same logic for good deeds, and refuse to give religion any credit for good as you refuse to give it any blame for evil ? And the comparison simply doesn’t work, anyway. First, because atheism isn’t a belief system, while both Communism and religion are. Second, because all the facts support atheism, and oppose both Communism and religion; both Communism and religion require a delusional mind set. Third, because atheism, being simply disbelief in gods, doesn’t call for any action, make any judgements, demand any action; unlike both Communism and religion which do all of those. And fourth, why is it just the Communists, and not other atheist groups ? Answer : Because their actions are all about Communism, and not about atheism. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/68 "2009-03-03T14:51:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s EXACTLY the point. To pretend the two are identical so that believers can pretend that all atheists are monsters, without having to show any wrongdoings being committed by **non-Communist** atheists. That’s why it’s ALWAYS Communism in these discussions, with occasional lies about the Nazis being atheist. I won’t even bother with this since we both know you have nothing to back it up with except your ability to type “Is So” over and over again. > [@](#): > > In other words, let’s pretend that religion is responsible only for good. Or are you going to apply the same logic for good deeds, and refuse to give religion any credit for good as you refuse to give it any blame for evil ? Yawn! Never said anything even remotely like this. My point is that good deeds or evil ones have more nuanced motives that aren’t understood by your gross oversimplification and glaringly obvious prejudice against religion. > [@](#): > > And the comparison simply doesn’t work, anyway. First, because atheism isn’t a belief system, while both Communism and religion are. Second, because all the facts support atheism, and oppose both Communism and religion; both Communism and religion require a delusional mind set. Third, because atheism, being simply disbelief in gods, doesn’t call for any action, make any judgements, demand any action; unlike both Communism and religion which do all of those. And fourth, why is it just the Communists, and not other atheist groups ? Answer : Because their actions are all about Communism, and not about atheism. Irrelevant. I made no such comparison. The point is that neither belief in God or non belief is the determining factor for good or evil deeds. Atheists do good and bad things. Believers do good and bad things. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/69 "2009-03-03T18:59:21Z")
I’d like to know if **ITR champion** is ever going to come back to his own debate. You started this thread, my friend, and i took the time to read your argument, address some of your claims, and make some arguments of my own. Other people have done the same. Were you ever planning on actually debating the issues you laid out in the OP, or was this really intended as an IMHO-style thread, where you would just dispense your opinion and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/70 "2009-03-03T21:21:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I won’t even bother with this since we both know you have nothing to back it up with except your ability to type “Is So” over and over again. In other words, “let’s ignore the elephant in the living room”. Let’s ignore the fact that it’s always Communism that gets brought up and used to bash atheism, and equated to atheism. If Communism had never existed, what argument would you use to pretend that atheism is just as bad as theism ? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yawn! Never said anything even remotely like this. My point is that good deeds or evil ones have more nuanced motives that aren’t understood by your gross oversimplification and glaringly obvious prejudice against religion. Yes, that’s exactly what you were saying. You were making the standard argument for religion that tries to pretend that religion isn’t responsible for evil committed in it’s name. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Irrelevant. I made no such comparison. The point is that neither belief in God or non belief is the determining factor for good or evil deeds. Atheists do good and bad things. Believers do good and bad things. But believers do more bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/71 "2009-03-03T22:09:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Irrelevant. I made no such comparison. The point is that neither belief in God or non belief is the determining factor for good or evil deeds. Atheists do good and bad things. Believers do good and bad things. Right. So we don’t blame atheism for bad things that atheists have done and we don’t blame theism on bad things that theists have done…but it is fair to blame bad things done in the name of religion due to religious hate filled dogma on religion. Atheism has no religion, period. Bad things done in the name of Allah can be blamed on Islam. Bad things done because of dogma in the Bible can be blamed on Christianity. Bad things done because of Communist beliefs can be blamed on the spread of Communism. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/72 "2009-03-03T22:32:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which atheists say that ? And for that matter, a religious conflict doesn’t need to be involved for religion to either be responsible or contribute to war. > > Also, given that it’s a textbook it likely isn’t reliable. A textbook too critical of religion would be unpublishable in America. I’m not sure what you mean by, which atheists say that? Atheist conflict doesn’t need to be involved for atheism to be responsible or contribute to war. So saying religion doesn’t need to be involve to be responsible or contribute is the equivalent of saying the same thing about atheism. Part and parcel to all wars is expansionism and greed. Most wars, whatever the reason, take what they conquer. “To the victor goes the spoils.” How do you figure it being a textbook makes it reliable? Are you saying the stats are reversed and that they are lying about religion being responsible for only a small portion of the wars? That logic doesn’t follow, that’s just your biased opinion. From what I gather about neoatheists is their premise for attacking religion is that 1. it hinders scientific progress as in stem cell, cloning, etc. 2. religion starts the majority of wars and that if everybody switched to atheism the number of wars would plummet. If I haven’t got that right please let me know. But do you really think that a totally atheist world would significantly reduce wars? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/73 "2009-03-03T22:57:17Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by, which atheists say that? You seemed to be saying that atehsits claimed that most wars were religious conflicts. > [@jakesteele](#): > > Atheist conflict doesn’t need to be involved for atheism to be responsible or contribute to war. So saying religion doesn’t need to be involve to be responsible or contribute is the equivalent of saying the same thing about atheism. No, it’s not. There’s no such thing as “atheist conflict” because by definition there’s only one atheist position; that there are no gods. There’s no competing dogmas to have conflict over. Atheists can and do disagree of course, but that’s not “atheist conflict”, that’s just an argument between people who happen to be atheist, on subjects **other** than atheism. You simply can’t realistically treat religion and atheism as equivalent; they are very different. One is a belief system based on faith; the other is the lack of a single belief, no faith required. Trying to blame atheism for people’s bad behavior the way religion is responsible for it’s followers bad behavior is like talking about about legs on a snake. They have none, just as atheism has no dogma for people to be bad **about**. > [@jakesteele](#): > > How do you figure it being a textbook makes it reliable? Are you saying the stats are reversed and that they are lying about religion being responsible for only a small portion of the wars? I’m saying that I don’t trust them; that textbooks that touch on political or religious subjects tend to be highly censored and distorted. And that even if ALL wars were caused by religion no American textbook would dare admit it. > [@jakesteele](#): > > From what I gather about neoatheists is their premise for attacking religion is that > > 1. it hinders scientific progress as in stem cell, cloning, etc. > 2. religion starts the majority of wars and that if everybody switched to atheism the number of wars would plummet. > > If I haven’t got that right please let me know. There’s no such thing as “neoatheism”. I don’t know any atheists who claim that most wars are caused by religion. And yes, religion hinders science, along with any number of other useful things Speaking as a plain old atheist, no “neo” involved, I consider religion to be baseless, extremely stupid, morally corrosive, and destructive on a wide variety of fronts. > [@jakesteele](#): > > But do you really think that a totally atheist world would significantly reduce wars? Probably. It would remove one cause of war, a major excuse for it, and produce fewer people willing to die. Worldwide atheism would in my opinion increase the general ethical tone of humanity; not because atheism is good, but because religion is evil and crazy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/74 "2009-03-04T01:09:02Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m not a great fan of the whole ‘religion is evil because evil things are done in its name’ line of thinking, but this sort of tu quoque seems an even worse argument to me. I mean, do you honestly not see a difference between a religion, a belief system _directly caused_ by the faith in the existence of god and subsequent needs to examine his properties, and ideologies (like communism etc.) that have no foundation in atheism at all? I’m not saying they don’t promote it, and in some cases even require it, but atheism doesn’t _lead to_ communism (or anything, really) the way faith in some higher being leads to religion. Correlation is not causation – for instance, there are people, including myself, arrive at atheism out of a sort of desire for frugality in one’s belief system, i.e. rejecting baseless and incomparable hypotheses about ephemeral realities, in accordance with some sort of baseline Occam’s razor, and those people will often tend to gravitate towards a scientific viewpoint in general, because that caters to the same need; this doesn’t mean that atheism is a reason for scientific thinking, though. On the other hand, religions _are_ a direct consequence of faith – faith in something is effectively already a religion in so far as that ‘something’ is defined by faith. From there, the establishing of that religion is a straight-forward (and necessary, or else the religion will die out) process of ‘fleshing out’ the object of faith – detailing god’s attributes, writing some mystical narratives, coming up with some rituals etc. > Faith cannot be faith alone, but absence of faith stands on its own. > Well, there’s an infinity of moments between now and later, and an infinity of points between here and there (provided no spacetime quantization). > Nobody’s denying that religion exists, but that’s at best questionable regarding the objects of their faiths (something you’ll agree with for the majority of religions if you follow one of them). Infinity has a clear-cut sense in which it has mathematical existence; I have yet to see an equation ending in ‘= god’. And faith doesn’t carry the same weight in making existential statements owing to its absolutely subjective nature: everybody can, basically, rediscover the mathematics of infinity, but not the tenets of (some given) faith; those are absolutely limited to the individual or those he can convince of them. I’m not suggesting atheism causes communism, but communism is atheistic and uses atheism to justify the oppression of people and their beliefs. It is the exact argument used against religion in this thread. I respect that you disagree. No, there are not an infinity of moments between now and later. It is finite, limited by the Planck time. Infinity is just a concept. You don’t accept that God is as valid a concept as infinity. I get that. Religious people who don’t do math would reverse your order, they find many useful things in their lives to do with religion, but none to do with infinity. Do you deny the validity of their enjoyment of their religion? I gather so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/75 "2009-03-04T01:57:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s pointing out that you are falsely conflating atheism and Communism. No, I am not, you are not reading carefully enough. You are the one calling Communism a religion, and it is not. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes Communism a religion, or a close cousin is that it’s a false worldview based on faith. Being a worldview, being based on faith, and being false ( which effectively goes with being based on faith ) are pretty much what defines something as a religion. Communism is normally classed by scholars as a political and economic philosophy. You have avoided this argument by asserting that it is a religion. It is not. Nor is Communism false in the sense that bigots call other religions false religions. Communism is a political and economic theory and exists as such. It is a failure when put into practice, but that is something that Marx recognized in his own lifetime. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I never said that all of politics or economics is a religion, that’s a strawman argument. That is the logical conclusion of your previous statement that ignores that you have erroneously characterized Communism as a religion, which you repeat. You cannot make Communism into a religion and take away its political and economic character by a waive of your hand. It isn’t a religion. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Communism supports atheism for the same reason it opposes all labor unions not controlled by the Communist party; it doesn’t like competition. … No, you obviously have not read Marx. Austin Cline (an atheist) writes: [http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/13/karl-marx-religion-2.htm](http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/13/karl-marx-religion-2.htm) > [@](#): > > According to Marx, religion is an expression of material realities and economic injustice. Thus, problems in religion are ultimately problems in society. Religion is not the disease, but merely a symptom. It is used by oppressors to make people feel better about the distress they experience due to being poor and exploited. This is the origin of his comment that religion is the “opium of the masses” - but as shall see, his thoughts are much more complex than commonly portrayed. To the extent that communism in actual practice benefited from removing competition, you are correct, but only to that extent. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > …And Christianity is most certainly NOT opposed to “war, greed, oppression, etc”. Where did Jesus or Paul say they were not opposed to war, greed or oppression? Your statement misrepresents by 180 degrees the theology you oppose. This statement suggests that you have no idea what Christian doctrine actually is, and your failure to look it up after so many months of railing against it suggests that you don’t care what it really is, and are not arguing against it in good faith. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. Christianity has a long tradition of supporting and excusing greed & capitalism ( once capitalism showed up to be supported ). And Christianity’s “Dictatorial element” is still going strong; it’s just that Christianity has become too weak and divided to impose the kind of tyranny it used to. There are no parts of the New Testament to support this. The New Testament is in fact contrary. Your issue seems to be with so-called Christians who have misused a clear message of pacifism, charity and sharing for the opposite ends. This is like saying that all atheists are like Stalin and Mao and wrong for the same reasons. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, anti-Semitism has taken a beating for the last 60 years - AFTER the fall of the Nazis who you are trying to claim weren’t acting like Christians. And the fight against homophobia, much like the fight against anti-semitism is largely a fight against Christianity and other religions. If you can’t tell the difference between Adolph Eichmann and Deitrich Bonhoeffer you need to look harder. Christians are not equal to Nazis anymore than atheists are equal to Communists. I would suggest not just an open library, but the opening of a closed mind. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, please. The Pope supported fascism leading up until WWII, and the Catholic Church helped Nazi war criminals escape to safety. Beg all you want, but this is a misinterpretation of history. The Catholic Church never had a policy of helping war criminals escape. To the extent that individuals who were Catholic may have done so, I am unaware of any named person who did such a thing, nor of any charges brought against anyone of obstruction of justice for doing so. You state that the whole institution did so and did so based in doctrine without any evidence of any of it. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They supported the holocaust, they supported and in fact created the beliefs that led to it. And Christians have been killing Jews for centuries in pogroms; pretending that it’s some Nazi aberration is ridiculous. Again you assert and libel all Christians for supporting the Holocaust. This is the same as saying all atheists supported the purges and gulags. It is not based in reality, but in hateful fantasy. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that Communism is in no way representative of atheism. But then that’s why you need to slander atheism by trying to smear it with the crimes of Communism; you don’t HAVE non-Communist mass murders and tyranny committed in the name of atheism to point at. So you will continue to pretend the two are the same. > > As opposed to religion, where mass murder and tyranny in it’s name are not at all restricted to one group. > > Nonsense. Christianity, for example is in the position it is today because of it’s propensity towards mass murder and tyranny. People commit acts of evil and stupidity all the time because their religion demands it, not just using it as an excuse. You misunderstand me. I have no desire to slander atheism. I respect atheism. I am merely pointing out that your arguments against Christians have the same flaws as one could use against atheists if you do not distinguish that the things done to advance the philosophy of each from the people that don’t do those things and from the underlying principles. You wish to weigh me down with having supported the Holocaust (I wasn’t born yet) and pogroms, yet excuse yourself from the gulag. Both are nonsensical. Religions, or lack of them, commit no acts. People commit acts. Writing is committing an act. Casting blame for the Holocaust on Christianity and all Christians is an act done by a real person. An act done by a real person who does not accept that the large and vast majority of Christians in the last century despised Naziism and the Holocaust, that churches and doctrines did not approve of, call for or participate such acts. You, in this argument, have committed a great injustice on Christians. And I imagine that you are proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/76 "2009-03-04T02:00:41Z")
Bullshit. Just because Hitler was deceptive and hiding behind Christianity does not make Christians Nazis, nor any Nazis Christians. Nothing in Christian doctrine called for the Holocaust or Naziism in any way. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/77 "2009-03-04T02:45:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, “let’s ignore the elephant in the living room”. Let’s ignore the fact that it’s always Communism that gets brought up and used to bash atheism, and equated to atheism. If Communism had never existed, what argument would you use to pretend that atheism is just as bad as theism ? I’m not pretending anything. I’m shooting for accurate language and means of comparision. You’re playing word games to make your bias seem factual, It ain’t workin’ If atheism is unfairly judged by looking at Communism then theism must be unfairly judged by looking at religion. As you said yourself., atheism is not a belief system. Neither is theism in and of itself. A particular religion with a specific doctrine is a belief system with theism as an integral part. Communism is a belief system with atheism as an integral part. Let’s use the same scales to weigh things shall we? I know that doesn’t help support your prejudice but give it a shot anyway. > [@](#): > > Yes, that’s exactly what you were saying. You were making the standard argument for religion that tries to pretend that religion isn’t responsible for evil committed in it’s name. Not even close. I’m sorry that either your lack of reading comprehension your own prejudice, or keep you from seeing the point I’m making. I believe individuals and the groups that shelter or encourage them should take responsibility for their choices. I really don’t give a crap whether they are religious or not. I also happen to think your argument is a load, so I’m saying so. > [@](#): > > But believers do more bad things. Well since believers make up , what, 90% of the worlds population, that’s an obvious and not to startling statistic. If we’re talking a per capita type argument I’m fairly sure you have no idea and are just making things up as usual. I won’t bother asking you to back that up because I know from experience that you won’t. I’ll just assume you typed “Do so” 40 or 50 times to save the bandwidth. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/78 "2009-03-04T03:00:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If atheism is unfairly judged by looking at Communism then theism must be unfairly judged by looking at religion. That’s right. But it’s not unfair to judge a religion based on the tenets of that religion. Atheism has no tenets or dogma to judge it on. > [@](#): > > Communism is a belief system with atheism as an integral part. No, Communism works just fine without atheism: > [@](#): > > Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.[1][2][3] Karl Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. “Pure communism” in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life. > > As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of socialism; a broad group of economic and political philosophies that draw on the various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution.[4] Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems with the capitalist market economy and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism. Marx states that the only way to solve these problems is for the working class (proletariat), who according to Marx are the main producers of wealth in society and are exploited by the Capitalist-class (bourgeoisie), to replace the bourgeoisie as the ruling class in order to establish a free society, without class or racial divisions.[2] The dominant forms of communism, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Trotskyism are based on Marxism, but non-Marxist versions of communism (such as Christian communism and anarcho-communism) also exist. > > Karl Marx never provided a detailed description as to how communism would function as an economic system, but it is understood that a communist economy would consist of common ownership of the means of production, culminating in the negation of the concept of private ownership. Unlike socialism, which is compatible with a market economy, a communist economy consists of local or communal democratic planning. > **[Communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism)** > > Communism (from Latin communis 'common, universal') is a political and economic ideology whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products in society based on need. A communist society entails the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state. Communism is a part of the broader socialist movement. > Communists often seek a volu... Christianity working without theism? Nope. > [@](#): > > Christianity (from the word Xριστός “Christ”) is a monotheistic religion[1] centered on the life and teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament.[2] > > Adherents of Christianity, known as Christians,[3] believe that Jesus is the only begotten[4][5] Son of God and the Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible (the part of scripture common to Christianity and Judaism). Christian theology claims that Jesus Christ is a teacher, the model of a virtuous life, the revealer of God, as well as an incarnation of God, and most importantly the savior of humanity who suffered, died, and was resurrected to bring about salvation from sin.[6] Christians maintain that Jesus ascended into heaven, and most denominations teach that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers. Christians call the message of Jesus Christ the Gospel (“good news”) and hence label the earliest written accounts of his ministry as gospels. > **[Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity)** > > Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion, which states that Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead after his crucifixion, whose coming as the messiah (Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament and chronicled in the New Testament. It is the world's largest and most widespread religion with over 2.3 billion followers, comprising around 28.8% of the world population. Its adherents, known as Christians, are estimated to make up a majority of the population in 120 countries and... ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/79 "2009-03-04T03:20:41Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Right. So we don’t blame atheism for bad things that atheists have done and we don’t blame theism on bad things that theists have done…but it is fair to blame bad things done in the name of religion due to religious hate filled dogma on religion. Atheism has no religion, period. Bad things done in the name of Allah can be blamed on Islam. Bad things done because of dogma in the Bible can be blamed on Christianity. Bad things done because of Communist beliefs can be blamed on the spread of Communism. As I said in my response to DT, let’s keep the comparisons reasonably fair. If someone who doesn’t even believe in God uses religious language to justify his deeds or to manipulate others, is religion to blame? That’s akin to blaming the gun for the killing rather than the person who pulled the trigger. I’d agree that a strict dogma whether religious or not can bring negative results. Whenever people start thinking and teaching, people who are good and right think this way and people who are evil and wrong think differently, and then use that difference to persecute others, we have a problem. That principle certainly applies to religion but it also applies to Communism or over zealous nationalism. IMHO that means it’s not religion or theism that’s the . It’s any dogmatic narrow way of thinking. It’s a form of prejudice and bigotry not dissimilar from racial prejudice. In racial prejudice we draw lines of skin color and culture, on what is good bad, superior or inferior. With a dogmatic mind set it’s a belief system, whether religious or political or economic, that generates separation and animosity. That’s not even considering other factors like the desire for power. ftr, Allah is the Arabic word for God and no, people using that to justify their hatred or for their political agenda don’t get to blame that on Islam. Also, there is no dogma in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748/80 "2009-03-04T03:34:59Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > That’s right. But it’s not unfair to judge a religion based on the tenets of that religion. Atheism has no tenets or dogma to judge it on. I agree. I think belief systems should be examined and openly criticized when they impact the lives of others. I also expect that to require some effort on the part of those that want to criticize, to keep their criticism accurate and reasonable. Seem fair? [QUOTE] > [@](#): > > No, Communism works just fine without atheism: > > [Communism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) Since I strive for accuracy of language and detail I appreciate the correction. We are , however, talking about historical communism not the ideal. If communism works fine even with theism then we’re left with the problem of explaining the atheistic view and persecution of religion under historical communism. Again we’re back to dogma. If a religion justifies persecuting those that believe differently with a “better world” mindset it doesn’t seem better of much different to me than those who would persecute religion because they think atheism makes a better world. > [@](#): > > Christianity working without theism? Nope. > > [Christianity - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) Granted, and ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lies-of-sam-harris/487748.md?page=5)