No, it’s pointing out that you are falsely conflating atheism and Communism.
What makes Communism a religion, or a close cousin is that it’s a false worldview based on faith. Being a worldview, being based on faith, and being false ( which effectively goes with being based on faith ) are pretty much what defines something as a religion.
And I never said that all of politics or economics is a religion, that’s a strawman argument.
Communism supports atheism for the same reason it opposes all labor unions not controlled by the Communist party; it doesn’t like competition. And Christianity is most certainly NOT opposed to “war, greed, oppression, etc”.
Nonsense. Christianity has a long tradition of supporting and excusing greed & capitalism ( once capitalism showed up to be supported ). And Christianity’s “Dictatorial element” is still going strong; it’s just that Christianity has become too weak and divided to impose the kind of tyranny it used to.
Yes, anti-Semitism has taken a beating for the last 60 years - AFTER the fall of the Nazis who you are trying to claim weren’t acting like Christians. And the fight against homophobia, much like the fight against anti-semitism is largely a fight against Christianity and other religions.
:rolleyes: Oh, please. The Pope supported fascism leading up until WWII, and the Catholic Church helped Nazi war criminals escape to safety.
They supported the holocaust, they supported and in fact created the beliefs that led to it. And Christians have been killing Jews for centuries in pogroms; pretending that it’s some Nazi aberration is ridiculous.
Except that Communism is in no way representative of atheism. But then that’s why you need to slander atheism by trying to smear it with the crimes of Communism; you don’t HAVE non-Communist mass murders and tyranny committed in the name of atheism to point at. So you will continue to pretend the two are the same.
As opposed to religion, where mass murder and tyranny in it’s name are not at all restricted to one group.
Nonsense. Christianity, for example is in the position it is today because of it’s propensity towards mass murder and tyranny. People commit acts of evil and stupidity all the time because their religion demands it, not just using it as an excuse.
Again, nonsense. The Catholic Church, and many of it’s followers was forced into doing something about it. Plenty of people disagreed that something should be done.
But religion is not. It’s just garbage, plain and simple.
A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict.3 So, what atheists have considered to be “most” really amounts to less than 7% of all wars.
Which atheists say that ? And for that matter, a religious conflict doesn’t need to be involved for religion to either be responsible or contribute to war.
Also, given that it’s a textbook it likely isn’t reliable. A textbook too critical of religion would be unpublishable in America.
I would disagree that Naziism was Christian in its nature. It was not. [snip]
As evil as the crimes of the Nazis were, they were not done in the name of Christianity.
How many times do we have to debunk this assertion?
[QUOTE= A Hitler]
. We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich]
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
In the life of nations, what in the last resort decides questions is a kind of Judgment Court of God… Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills.
-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 13 April 1923
It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed “A New Beginning,” 26 Feb. 1925
The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life… The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933
The point about Communism isn’t to bash atheism or label it as evil. It’s to show that belief systems that promote no God belief are just as capable of atrocities as those that do. IMO it suggests that it isn’t God belief or religion per say that is the source of any evil acts any more than non belief was for Communism. It strikes me as saying that governments are evil and should be done away with because we can clearly see that it’s governments that have committed more atrocities than any other human construction. It’s so over simplified it’s ridiculous and substance free.
That’s an interesting point but keep in mind that lot’s of people believe and don’t practice any particular religion. Others may enjoy going to a service but have no need to embrace any particular doctrine. Now let’s add that some religions teach a rigid doctrine and some don’t.
It’s true that out faith in basic ideas and teachings organized religion can and has been born. It’s also true that attempts to hold those ideas into a box of specific dogma and doctrine has continuously failed.
That’s EXACTLY the point. To pretend the two are identical so that believers can pretend that all atheists are monsters, without having to show any wrongdoings being committed by non-Communist atheists. That’s why it’s ALWAYS Communism in these discussions, with occasional lies about the Nazis being atheist.
In other words, let’s pretend that religion is responsible only for good. Or are you going to apply the same logic for good deeds, and refuse to give religion any credit for good as you refuse to give it any blame for evil ?
And the comparison simply doesn’t work, anyway. First, because atheism isn’t a belief system, while both Communism and religion are. Second, because all the facts support atheism, and oppose both Communism and religion; both Communism and religion require a delusional mind set. Third, because atheism, being simply disbelief in gods, doesn’t call for any action, make any judgements, demand any action; unlike both Communism and religion which do all of those. And fourth, why is it just the Communists, and not other atheist groups ? Answer : Because their actions are all about Communism, and not about atheism.
I won’t even bother with this since we both know you have nothing to back it up with except your ability to type “Is So” over and over again.
Yawn! Never said anything even remotely like this. My point is that good deeds or evil ones have more nuanced motives that aren’t understood by your gross oversimplification and glaringly obvious prejudice against religion.
Irrelevant. I made no such comparison. The point is that neither belief in God or non belief is the determining factor for good or evil deeds. Atheists do good and bad things. Believers do good and bad things.
I’d like to know if ITR champion is ever going to come back to his own debate.
You started this thread, my friend, and i took the time to read your argument, address some of your claims, and make some arguments of my own. Other people have done the same. Were you ever planning on actually debating the issues you laid out in the OP, or was this really intended as an IMHO-style thread, where you would just dispense your opinion and move on?
In other words, “let’s ignore the elephant in the living room”. Let’s ignore the fact that it’s always Communism that gets brought up and used to bash atheism, and equated to atheism. If Communism had never existed, what argument would you use to pretend that atheism is just as bad as theism ?
Yes, that’s exactly what you were saying. You were making the standard argument for religion that tries to pretend that religion isn’t responsible for evil committed in it’s name.
Right. So we don’t blame atheism for bad things that atheists have done and we don’t blame theism on bad things that theists have done…but it is fair to blame bad things done in the name of religion due to religious hate filled dogma on religion. Atheism has no religion, period. Bad things done in the name of Allah can be blamed on Islam. Bad things done because of dogma in the Bible can be blamed on Christianity. Bad things done because of Communist beliefs can be blamed on the spread of Communism.
I’m not sure what you mean by, which atheists say that? Atheist conflict doesn’t need to be involved for atheism to be responsible or contribute to war. So saying religion doesn’t need to be involve to be responsible or contribute is the equivalent of saying the same thing about atheism.
Part and parcel to all wars is expansionism and greed. Most wars, whatever the reason, take what they conquer. “To the victor goes the spoils.”
How do you figure it being a textbook makes it reliable? Are you saying the stats are reversed and that they are lying about religion being responsible for only a small portion of the wars? That logic doesn’t follow, that’s just your biased opinion. From what I gather about neoatheists is their premise for attacking religion is that
it hinders scientific progress as in stem cell, cloning, etc.
religion starts the majority of wars and that if everybody switched to atheism the number of wars would plummet.
If I haven’t got that right please let me know. But do you really think that a totally atheist world would significantly reduce wars?
You seemed to be saying that atehsits claimed that most wars were religious conflicts.
No, it’s not. There’s no such thing as “atheist conflict” because by definition there’s only one atheist position; that there are no gods. There’s no competing dogmas to have conflict over. Atheists can and do disagree of course, but that’s not “atheist conflict”, that’s just an argument between people who happen to be atheist, on subjects other than atheism.
You simply can’t realistically treat religion and atheism as equivalent; they are very different. One is a belief system based on faith; the other is the lack of a single belief, no faith required. Trying to blame atheism for people’s bad behavior the way religion is responsible for it’s followers bad behavior is like talking about about legs on a snake. They have none, just as atheism has no dogma for people to be bad about.
I’m saying that I don’t trust them; that textbooks that touch on political or religious subjects tend to be highly censored and distorted. And that even if ALL wars were caused by religion no American textbook would dare admit it.
There’s no such thing as “neoatheism”. I don’t know any atheists who claim that most wars are caused by religion. And yes, religion hinders science, along with any number of other useful things
Speaking as a plain old atheist, no “neo” involved, I consider religion to be baseless, extremely stupid, morally corrosive, and destructive on a wide variety of fronts.
Probably. It would remove one cause of war, a major excuse for it, and produce fewer people willing to die. Worldwide atheism would in my opinion increase the general ethical tone of humanity; not because atheism is good, but because religion is evil and crazy.
I’m not suggesting atheism causes communism, but communism is atheistic and uses atheism to justify the oppression of people and their beliefs. It is the exact argument used against religion in this thread. I respect that you disagree.
No, there are not an infinity of moments between now and later. It is finite, limited by the Planck time. Infinity is just a concept.
You don’t accept that God is as valid a concept as infinity. I get that. Religious people who don’t do math would reverse your order, they find many useful things in their lives to do with religion, but none to do with infinity. Do you deny the validity of their enjoyment of their religion? I gather so.
No, I am not, you are not reading carefully enough. You are the one calling Communism a religion, and it is not.
Communism is normally classed by scholars as a political and economic philosophy. You have avoided this argument by asserting that it is a religion. It is not. Nor is Communism false in the sense that bigots call other religions false religions. Communism is a political and economic theory and exists as such. It is a failure when put into practice, but that is something that Marx recognized in his own lifetime.
That is the logical conclusion of your previous statement that ignores that you have erroneously characterized Communism as a religion, which you repeat. You cannot make Communism into a religion and take away its political and economic character by a waive of your hand. It isn’t a religion.
To the extent that communism in actual practice benefited from removing competition, you are correct, but only to that extent.
Where did Jesus or Paul say they were not opposed to war, greed or oppression? Your statement misrepresents by 180 degrees the theology you oppose. This statement suggests that you have no idea what Christian doctrine actually is, and your failure to look it up after so many months of railing against it suggests that you don’t care what it really is, and are not arguing against it in good faith.
There are no parts of the New Testament to support this. The New Testament is in fact contrary. Your issue seems to be with so-called Christians who have misused a clear message of pacifism, charity and sharing for the opposite ends. This is like saying that all atheists are like Stalin and Mao and wrong for the same reasons.
If you can’t tell the difference between Adolph Eichmann and Deitrich Bonhoeffer you need to look harder. Christians are not equal to Nazis anymore than atheists are equal to Communists. I would suggest not just an open library, but the opening of a closed mind.
Beg all you want, but this is a misinterpretation of history. The Catholic Church never had a policy of helping war criminals escape. To the extent that individuals who were Catholic may have done so, I am unaware of any named person who did such a thing, nor of any charges brought against anyone of obstruction of justice for doing so. You state that the whole institution did so and did so based in doctrine without any evidence of any of it.
Again you assert and libel all Christians for supporting the Holocaust. This is the same as saying all atheists supported the purges and gulags. It is not based in reality, but in hateful fantasy.
You misunderstand me. I have no desire to slander atheism. I respect atheism. I am merely pointing out that your arguments against Christians have the same flaws as one could use against atheists if you do not distinguish that the things done to advance the philosophy of each from the people that don’t do those things and from the underlying principles. You wish to weigh me down with having supported the Holocaust (I wasn’t born yet) and pogroms, yet excuse yourself from the gulag. Both are nonsensical. Religions, or lack of them, commit no acts.
People commit acts. Writing is committing an act. Casting blame for the Holocaust on Christianity and all Christians is an act done by a real person. An act done by a real person who does not accept that the large and vast majority of Christians in the last century despised Naziism and the Holocaust, that churches and doctrines did not approve of, call for or participate such acts. You, in this argument, have committed a great injustice on Christians. And I imagine that you are proud of it.
Bullshit. Just because Hitler was deceptive and hiding behind Christianity does not make Christians Nazis, nor any Nazis Christians. Nothing in Christian doctrine called for the Holocaust or Naziism in any way.
I’m not pretending anything. I’m shooting for accurate language and means of comparision. You’re playing word games to make your bias seem factual, It ain’t workin’
If atheism is unfairly judged by looking at Communism then theism must be unfairly judged by looking at religion. As you said yourself., atheism is not a belief system. Neither is theism in and of itself. A particular religion with a specific doctrine is a belief system with theism as an integral part. Communism is a belief system with atheism as an integral part. Let’s use the same scales to weigh things shall we? I know that doesn’t help support your prejudice but give it a shot anyway.
Not even close. I’m sorry that either your lack of reading comprehension your own prejudice, or keep you from seeing the point I’m making. I believe individuals and the groups that shelter or encourage them should take responsibility for their choices. I really don’t give a crap whether they are religious or not. I also happen to think your argument is a load, so I’m saying so.
Well since believers make up , what, 90% of the worlds population, that’s an obvious and not to startling statistic. If we’re talking a per capita type argument I’m fairly sure you have no idea and are just making things up as usual.
I won’t bother asking you to back that up because I know from experience that you won’t. I’ll just assume you typed “Do so” 40 or 50 times to save the bandwidth.
As I said in my response to DT, let’s keep the comparisons reasonably fair. If someone who doesn’t even believe in God uses religious language to justify his deeds or to manipulate others, is religion to blame? That’s akin to blaming the gun for the killing rather than the person who pulled the trigger.
I’d agree that a strict dogma whether religious or not can bring negative results. Whenever people start thinking and teaching, people who are good and right think this way and people who are evil and wrong think differently, and then use that difference to persecute others, we have a problem. That principle certainly applies to religion but it also applies to Communism or over zealous nationalism. IMHO that means it’s not religion or theism that’s the . It’s any dogmatic narrow way of thinking. It’s a form of prejudice and bigotry not dissimilar from racial prejudice. In racial prejudice we draw lines of skin color and culture, on what is good bad, superior or inferior. With a dogmatic mind set it’s a belief system, whether religious or political or economic, that generates separation and animosity. That’s not even considering other factors like the desire for power.
ftr, Allah is the Arabic word for God and no, people using that to justify their hatred or for their political agenda don’t get to blame that on Islam. Also, there is no dogma in the Bible.
I agree. I think belief systems should be examined and openly criticized when they impact the lives of others. I also expect that to require some effort on the part of those that want to criticize, to keep their criticism accurate and reasonable. Seem fair?
[QUOTE]
Since I strive for accuracy of language and detail I appreciate the correction. We are , however, talking about historical communism not the ideal. If communism works fine even with theism then we’re left with the problem of explaining the atheistic view and persecution of religion under historical communism. Again we’re back to dogma. If a religion justifies persecuting those that believe differently with a “better world” mindset it doesn’t seem better of much different to me than those who would persecute religion because they think atheism makes a better world.