# The Limbaugh crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581 "2007-10-05T01:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/41 "2007-10-05T04:11:17Z")
If Limbaugh has a “right” to broadcast on AFN, then so does Al Franken, and so do I. The government can’t make him stop talking, but they don’t have to pro-actively provide his platform for him. Taking him off AFN will in no way shut him up. Jailing him, pressuring commercial stations to take him off, that’s _censorship_. This tempest in a teapot is _not_. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/42 "2007-10-05T04:15:35Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] However, I will say that in my unprovable opinion, many of the people approving of this move as it applies to Limbaugh would be up in arms if the target were a liberal commentator. [/QUOTE] What people? No one in this thread has stated approval of this move (beyond the people that want to see AFN totally free of all types of political commentary). Do you mean Wesley Clark specifically, or some bunch of people on some other message board, or some other group of people? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/43 "2007-10-05T04:16:17Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] **Scylla** : The transcript is at the bottom of the Media Matters page. Why don’t you have a look? [/QUOTE] Sure. It’s edited. I heard the whole thing live. They took a big piece out of the middle where Rush clarifies his position and they cut the piece out of the end where he talks about Mac Beth. I’ve heard it live, Rush has replayed it. The transcript you are showing has been edited with two important segments ommitted. The ommission materially changes Rush’s statements to make it seem as if he is arguing a position he has never espoused and vehemently denied. * * * Selectively editing somebody’s statements in order to materially change the meaning of what they said is deliberate misquoting, and fundamentally dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/44 "2007-10-05T04:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] If Limbaugh has a “right” to broadcast on AFN, then so does Al Franken, and so do I. [/quote] Since nobody has said he has that right, your point is moot. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/45 "2007-10-05T04:35:25Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Since nobody has said he has that right, your point is moot. [/QUOTE] Dude, calling it “censorship” implicitly equates it with a right. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/46 "2007-10-05T04:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Does not sound like it, but how did he ever get on Armed Forces Radio? That sounds like the first mistake. [/QUOTE] According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rush_Limbaugh_Show) > [@](#): > > In addition, AFRTS produced a ballot of radio and television shows asking troops worldwide, “Who do you want that we don’t at present carry?” The Rush Limbaugh Show was not listed on the ballot, but won the vote as a write-in by the troops. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/47 "2007-10-05T04:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > According to Mediamatters he mentions Mac Beth 1 minute and forty seconds after he originally made the “phony soldiers” comment. It’s in the same segment, in the same context and pretty close. Seeing as he made them consecutively on topic I don’t think much, if any rewriting has been done. It seems to me like he’s making a transition when he starts talking about MacBeth. In the context of the call, it’s clear to me that “phony soldiers” refers to soldiers who oppose the war in Iraq. [Rush made that even clearer in the middle of one of his attempts to explain](http://mediamatters.org/items/200710030008?f=h_top): > [@](#): > > I was talking about a genuine phony soldier. And by the way, Jesse MacBeth’s not the only one. How about this guy Scott Thomas who was writing fraudulent, phony things in The New Republic about atrocities he saw that never happened? How about Jack Murtha blanketly accepting the notion that Marines at Haditha engaged in wanton murder of innocent children and civilians? So he makes it clear–“phony soldiers” also includes Scott Thomas (Beauchamp) and Jack Murtha, the first of whom is still serving in Iraq and the other of whom is a decorated veteran. I have yet to see any explanation for how Media Matters is taking Limbaugh “out of context”. (Limbaugh, like Bill O’Reilly, obviously doesn’t understand what that phrase means.) Even if you give Limbaugh a pass on his original comments, how can you ignore the addition of Beauchamp and Murtha to the “phony soldiers” list? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/48 "2007-10-05T04:39:53Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Sure. It’s edited. I heard the whole thing live. They took a big piece out of the middle where Rush clarifies his position and they cut the piece out of the end where he talks about Mac Beth. I’ve heard it live, Rush has replayed it. The transcript you are showing has been edited with two important segments ommitted. The ommission materially changes Rush’s statements to make it seem as if he is arguing a position he has never espoused and vehemently denied. * * * Selectively editing somebody’s statements in order to materially change the meaning of what they said is deliberate misquoting, and fundamentally dishonest. [/QUOTE] Get your facts right. Limbaugh is the one who removed a large chunk of the conversation in between where he called troops who oppose the war “phony soldiers” and when he moved on, much later, to the topic of Jesse Macbeth. He replayed an edited version of what was said with the Macbeth stuff pasted on directly after the “phony soldier” comment on order to fabricate a phony “context” by which he could extricate his fat, junkie ass from his own stupid words. I think censure is stupid and calls to remove him from the air waves are even more stupid (and anti-American), but let’s not pretend he wasn’t referring to soldiers who oppose the war. He absolutely was, as the original, untampered transcript makes clear. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/49 "2007-10-05T04:43:25Z")
Where does this original untampered manuscript reside? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/50 "2007-10-05T04:55:04Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Where does this original untampered manuscript reside? [/QUOTE] [here you go](http://mediamatters.org/items/200709280009?f=i_related). The bolded part is what Limbaugh chopped out of his phony replay. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/51 "2007-10-05T05:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] [here you go](http://mediamatters.org/items/200709280009?f=i_related). The bolded part is what Limbaugh chopped out of his phony replay. [/QUOTE] I think MediaMatters is a biased source. BUT – that’s a hell of a specific claim for a source – even a biased source – to simply create out of thin air. I find myself thinking that MediaMatters is most likely truthful here. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/52 "2007-10-05T05:02:37Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] Selectively editing somebody’s statements in order to materially change the meaning of what they said is deliberate misquoting, and fundamentally dishonest. [/QUOTE] It’s a little late, but I agree with this. I would add though that the litmus test of true dishonesty comes if the error is pointed out _and the source refuses to correct the record_. Speaking generally, that is. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/53 "2007-10-05T05:02:49Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] I swear to God, black is white with you right-wing Kool-Aid drinkers. [/QUOTE] **Moderator’s Warning:** **Frostillicus** you can (within reason) call Rush Limbaugh names, but personal insults directed at other posters aren’t allowed in this forum. You ought to know by now to tone it down or take it to the Pit, please. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/54 "2007-10-05T05:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] According to Mediamatters he mentions Mac Beth 1 minute and forty seconds after he originally made the “phony soldiers” comment. It’s in the same segment, in the same context and pretty close. Seeing as he made them consecutively on topic I don’t think much, if any rewriting has been done. [/QUOTE] So, having already made his “phony soldiers” comment, he ran around and tagged on a different topic, linking them. meh If you agree that Congress has not called for Limbaugh to be removed from AFN, then I stick by my “manufactured” observation. The loonies on the left are taking his idiotic comment and (foolishly) blowing it out of proportion while the fools on the right are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to pretend that his comment was “really” about Macbeth. I agree that he should not be removed from AFN and that AFN should be allowed, (nay, encouraged), to play political commentary. All else is posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/55 "2007-10-05T05:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I think MediaMatters is a biased source. BUT – that’s a hell of a specific claim for a source – even a biased source – to simply create out of thin air. I find myself thinking that MediaMatters is most likely truthful here. [/QUOTE] Sorry to hammer this point again, but – yes MediaMatters is biased. But so what? I can filter out bias: the real issue is fairness and honesty. I’m a regular reader of the Economist, which at times has rather pronounced biases. But provided that I’m giving sufficient information to make my own assessment, I have sufficient fortitude not to whine about it. (Not that Bricker or Scylla was whining-- again, I’m just pressing my POV.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/56 "2007-10-05T05:09:44Z")
How is this a “crisis”, even under the most generous of conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/57 "2007-10-05T05:12:10Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] It’s a little late, but I agree with this. I would add though that the litmus test of true dishonesty comes if the error is pointed out _and the source refuses to correct the record_. Speaking generally, that is. [/QUOTE] No error has been pointed out. Limbaugh lied about the context and tampered with the tape himself when he played it back. Unless you think mediamatters just made up a transcript out of thin air. They might be biased but I don’t find it credible that they would fabricate a fictional transcript. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/58 "2007-10-05T05:14:52Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] You really shouldn’t bend over and spread them until **after** I report your post. People will think you wanted it. [/QUOTE] **Moderator’s Warning:** Oh, and _this_ isn’t appropriate either. There’s really no need for any “I’ve reported this post, neener neener neener” posting in the thread–just proceed on with the thread and ignore the bad post (or the bad parts of the post). And this particular instance is definitely [over the line](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4749265). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/59 "2007-10-05T05:16:36Z")
Right. It seems from the existing evidence that Rush has displayed dishonesty, at least by **Scylla** ’s criteria, which I mostly agree with. If OTOH MM could be shown to have played games with ellipses, and then refused to correct the record, that would be very different. [QUOTE=tomndebb] The loonies on the left are taking his idiotic comment and (foolishly) blowing it out of proportion while the fools on the right are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to pretend that his comment was “really” about Macbeth. … All else is posturing. [/QUOTE] Well the lefties are playing payback for the 'Wingers obsession with Moveon’s rhetorical question regarding General Petraeus (or was it General …) The real issue is the selective pseudo-patriotism of those bothered by factual challenges to public testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581/60 "2007-10-05T08:01:19Z")
If **Scylla’s** able to come up with video evidence of a different transcript i’d certainly be willing to revise my opinion. If he can’t, I think for him to say you can’t come to a different conclusion than he “in good faith” is going too far. Clearly we are reading different sources (according to him); if he cannot provide the original, is it not reasonable to assume the Mediamatters one is the correct one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limbaugh-crisis/421581.md?page=4)