# The limits of the "It's my body" argument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541 "2006-01-18T19:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/41 "2006-01-19T22:08:44Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > However, lets assume that a woman gets some from a website or somesuch. Further, lets assume that she knows that most likely her fetus will be horribly damaged by taking it. She takes it anyway. Her fetus is born horribly deformed. Well, what are you going to do? Put her in jail? To me that seems absurd. Why is it absurd? Why not put her in jail? > [@](#): > > I think her actions are horrific and morally reprehensible, but not illegal. It is her body, and her pimples in question. If they’re so bad that she’s suicidal about it, then I don’t think I have any place telling her that she shouldn’t take a medication that will help. If her pimples are so bad that she is suicidal, and decides that it’s OK to deform her baby to get rid of her pimples, then maybe she shouldn’t be having a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/42 "2006-01-19T22:40:47Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Well in the abortion debate none of 1-4 is really agreed upon by everyone. The basis for the case is that you _have_ to accept 1-4 and then analyze whether or not the conclusion is acceptable even if you DO accept 1-4. Basically it’s a test to see if you agree with the anti-abortion logic _even_ if you accept the anti-abortionists criteria for the sake of argument. The crux of the argument seems to be 1). The anti-abortion argument is that 1) is true, and the pro-choice argument, at least mine, is that honest people differ on whether 1) is true, and, since it is undecidable (outside of the fetus chatting like in the comics) people should be able to make their own decisions. Given 1), I could even argue for 4 in the case of a fetus, since the violation of bodily autonomy could be said to happen at conception. We could then get into a very interesting birth control argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/43 "2006-01-21T02:54:37Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > However, lets assume that a woman gets some from a website or somesuch. Further, lets assume that she knows that most likely her fetus will be horribly damaged by taking it. She takes it anyway. Her fetus is born horribly deformed. Well, what are you going to do? Put her in jail? To me that seems absurd. […] It is her body, and her pimples in question. If they’re so bad that she’s suicidal about it, then I don’t think I have any place telling her that she shouldn’t take a medication that will help. I don’t think it’s that absurd. Her choices (first to take the medication, second to carry the fetus to term) sentenced a person to a life of horrible deformities. She had two chances to avoid that outcome, one of which still would have gotten rid of her suicide pimples. If she attacked the baby moments after birth and caused the same deformities, we’d all recognize that as atrocious; I don’t think she deserves any credit for doing the same thing a few months _before_ birth. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/44 "2006-01-27T14:50:13Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > One popular abortion analogy I’ve seen in some textbooks is the case of the “famous violinist.” You’re apparently referring to Judith Jarvis Thompson’s analogy. I think it fails to adequately capture the horrificness of the abortion issue for numerous reasons. Among other things, it treats the fetus as a stranger who has deliberately imposed himself on the woman, rather than the woman’s own innocent child – a being that was created by the woman herself, and who had no choice in the matter. (Dr. Francis Beckwith discussed this analogy more thoroughly [here](http://www.archindy.org/prolife/beckwithviolinist.htm), and in his classic text, _Politically Correct Death_.) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/45 "2006-01-27T15:41:30Z")
And of course, the ‘horrificness’ is contingent on 1) _the foetus is a person_ which, as **Martin** points out, looks increasingly silly as we gradually move back in time to the life that is the seperate sperm and egg. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/46 "2006-01-27T16:13:45Z")
Singing ♪♫ “It’s my body and I’ll die if I want to…” ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/47 "2006-01-27T18:14:38Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And of course, the ‘horrificness’ is contingent on 1) _the foetus is a person_ … The point is that Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “famous violinist” argument simply does not hold water. She claims that one is justified in killing the unborn _even if it is a person_, but her arguments are fatally flawed [for numerous reasons that Francis Beckwith enumerated](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801010500/sr=1-1/qid=1138385642/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6698616-8817404?%5Fencoding=UTF8). Now, if you want to argue that the unborn is not a person, or not a human being (depending on your choice of battleground), then that’s a separate matter altogether. Either way though, the “famous violinist” argument becomes irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/48 "2006-01-27T23:39:38Z")
**zev\_steinhardt** your conjoined twins example led me to a contradiction, as the answer seems to be that the twins must decide for themselves. But then who speaks for the fetus? If the mother has such authority then it would seem that she should be able to decide if they (mother and fetus) can come to a mutual decision to end the fetus’ life. If we deem the state can supercede on this decision then they should be able to decide, which we do have precedent on this as parents authority can be superceded by CPS’s. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/49 "2006-01-28T01:05:05Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The point is that Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “famous violinist” argument simply does not hold water. She claims that one is justified in killing the unborn _even if it is a person_, but her arguments are fatally flawed [for numerous reasons that Francis Beckwith enumerated](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801010500/sr=1-1/qid=1138385642/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6698616-8817404?%5Fencoding=UTF8). Can you list some of those arguments for those of us who don’t want to buy that book? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541/50 "2006-01-28T01:29:30Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Can you list some of those arguments for those of us who don’t want to buy that book? Already listed in [the previous article that I cited](http://www.archindy.org/prolife/beckwithviolinist.htm). If you’d rather not buy the book, then may I recommend a public library? Any decent US library should be able to procure this text, since it’s fairly well known. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-limits-of-the-its-my-body-argument/340541.md?page=2)