# The line is bullshit but beautiful, and needs to be said anyway (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054 "2008-10-15T17:09:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/1 "2008-10-15T17:09:52Z")
My son’s daughter has acquired a bootleg copy of The Dark Knight, and she brought it over last night so she and Mrs. Rhymer could watch it. I gave a stern lecture on why doing so was W R O N G, but it was on and I didn’t feel like working so I watched the latter half with them. This, of course, included Jim Gordon’s eulogy for Harvey Dent, with scenes of Batman running from the police interspersed through it. Listening to this, two things about Gordon’s words–the monologue in which he says that Dent was not the hero Gotham deserved, but the one the city needed–struck me. One was that it was utter bullshit – the very definition of verbal irony, fact – but also that he would have been insane to say anything else. Can anybody else name such dialogue? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/2 "2008-10-15T18:22:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > the very definition of verbal irony I don’t see that line as in any way ironic, so would you mind expounding on this? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/3 "2008-10-15T19:47:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > My son’s daughter has acquired a bootleg copy of The Dark Knight… **Skald** , forgive the hijack, but I’m totally baffled by this sentence. I vaguely remember you mentioning a son in the past and I’m pretty sure you’ve pegged your own age as late 30s/early 40s. So wouldn’t that mean any daughter of your son would be really freaking young? How is she acquiring a bootleg copy of anything? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/4 "2008-10-15T21:38:45Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > **Skald** , forgive the hijack, but I’m totally baffled by this sentence. I vaguely remember you mentioning a son in the past and I’m pretty sure you’ve pegged your own age as late 30s/early 40s. So wouldn’t that mean any daughter of your son would be really freaking young? How is she acquiring a bootleg copy of anything? I mistyped. I meant my son’s sister. I was never married to her mother (also my son’s mother, obviously), so she’s not my stepdaughter, but she’s not just some kid I know either. I think I probably typed “son’s daughter” originally, decided that was needlessly confusing and changed it to “stepdaughter,” decided that was misleading and meant to change it back to “son’s daughter,” then was distracted by work. Stupid work. As for how she acquired the bootleg, I have no idea, but I’m sure it was illegal. It was an unlabeled DVD with a copy of Dark Knight on it. I didn’t ask for details because the answer would have annoyed me, and I’m not the boss of her anyway. > [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I don’t see that line as in any way ironic, so would you mind expounding on this? Again poor editing. I should have written [dramatic irony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Dramatic_irony), in which there is added significance or contrary meaning to in a one character’s dialogue of which other characters are unaware. When Oedipus proclaims his determination to find and punish Laius’ murderer, the situation is full of dramatic irony because he does know not that he himself is the guilty party. See what happens when you don’t preview, kids? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/5 "2008-10-15T21:55:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Again poor editing. I should have written [dramatic irony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Dramatic_irony), in which there is added significance or contrary meaning to in a one character’s dialogue of which other characters are unaware. Okay, I can see where that might be valid. I don’t happen to agree with it, but the world’s big enough for both of our opinions. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/6 "2008-10-15T21:58:06Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Okay, I can see where that might be valid. I don’t happen to agree with it, but the world’s big enough for both of our opinions. 🙂 Yeah, it’s not like I’m going to release thousands of giant gerbils on you for disagreeing with me. I mean, I MIGHT release thousands of mutated giant gerbils on you, but only for other stuff. 🆒 Care to answer the OP? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/7 "2008-10-15T22:02:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Care to answer the OP? If you insist, but I doubt anyone else here knows the movie. My favorite line in my favorite movie, _Round Midnight_, comes when the little French fanboy says to his drunken bebop idol: “You’re Dale Turner! You’re too good for this shit!” No, Francis. He’s exactly at the right level for that shit, as he will spend the rest of his life proving to you. It’s a horrible sounding line naked like that, but in the context of the film, it never fails to move me. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/8 "2008-10-16T01:37:50Z")
I’ve always thought [this speech](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOiqAhi4aiA) from “Patton” is a beautiful moment in terms of film making, and certainly a wonderful performance, but it is utter crap in terms of content. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-line-is-bullshit-but-beautiful-and-needs-to-be-said-anyway-open-spoilers/468054/9 "2008-10-16T14:39:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This, of course, included Jim Gordon’s eulogy for Harvey Dent, with scenes of Batman running from the police interspersed through it. Listening to this, two things about Gordon’s words–the monologue in which he says that Dent was not the hero Gotham deserved, but the one the city needed–struck me. One was that it was utter bullshit – the very definition of verbal irony, fact – but also that he would have been insane to say anything else. Wait, the “Eulogy” was for _Batman_, and it was not meant to be ironic per se. Gordon was saying that Gotham really needs a Harvey Dent. A White Knight to champion justice, someone who can restore people’s faith in themselves, and their government. Someone who will break the mobs and stop the crime. Batman can’t be that. Gotham deserves him (and maybe not even that). Gordon was, in his own way, _criticizing_ Batman, although he clearly admires him. Batman can’t be everything the city needs - it’s too much for one man. So he’ll _play_ the villain in order to protect what’s most important. Or maybe Gordon wasn’t saying Batman wasn’t a hero, but that Batman went _beyond_ even being a hero, destroying his own reputation and even weakening his power in order to help others. It’s a little melodramatic.