# The Little Mermaid is GASP! Black **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651 "2019-07-07T01:30:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/161 "2019-07-10T20:18:14Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I’m objecting to changing – for what appears to be no significant reason – _zeitgeist_ for three decades. But maybe the actress is really good? At the very least she can sing. That’s better than Hermione as Belle, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/162 "2019-07-10T21:20:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Monstro is, I think, making a slightly different point. If her skin color went from [Golden Deep to Warm Tan](https://tommybeautypro.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/skinshadeselector.jpeg?w=490), would you notice? Would you consider that as significant a change as going from Light to Warm Tan? > > If you’d consider it a less significant change, that’s probably due to your culturally-received notions of race. Yes, that is exactly my point. **Sauron** , you first post in the thread discussed Disney changing Ariel’s _race_. Not her skin color, but her race. Well, the reason I find that crazy is we don’t know what Ariel’s race is other than mermaid. You are assuming her race is white. But there are pale skinned, blue eyed people who are categorized as black. So who is to say this is a “race change”? If Vanessa Williams were thirty years younger and she had been cast to play Ariel, would you find it objectionable? After all, VW is a black woman. We’d have the same presumed racial swap we have now, correct? Or would you feel like VW is close enough skin tone-wise to the cartoon that it’s no big deal what her race is? To think about this further, if Disney were to do a live action version of the Proud Family and they cast a dark-skinned girl to play the light-skinned Penny, would this register to you as a big change? Or would you feel like nailing the skin tone is low priority to whether the actress can act like Penny and look enough like her through clothing and hairstyle? What if the dark skinned actress killed it in the audition? Should the casting director go with the subpar light-skinned actress just because her skin tone lines up with cartoon Penny’s better? How would that make good business sense? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/163 "2019-07-10T21:33:26Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Then why was Will Smith as the Genie blue-toned for at least part of the recent _Aladdin_ remake? > > I think it’s because the Genie character, as created and marketed by Disney, was blue in the original cartoon (and in subsequent cartoons). His appearance was a significant portion of his “cultural” identity (i.e., how we as a moviegoing culture perceived him). Disney could’ve just let him be Will Smith as “a” genie, but when he was the character “Genie” for _Aladdin_, he was blue (for a time, anyway; as I understand it, he didn’t stay blue throughout the movie). > > As you (and others) have pointed out, I’m sure Disney has done marketing studies and focus groups about this change to the Ariel character. And maybe all their data is correct, and this won’t matter one bit. Maybe the live-action remake of _The Little Mermaid_ will be the highest-grossing movie in the history of cinema solely because of this change. > > Of course, Coca-Cola had marketing studies out the wazoo saying New Coke was what people wanted back in the mid-80s, too, and that didn’t turn out so well. > > My point is, messing with an icon for no salient reason doesn’t always work. Genies are blue (apparently). That’s an intrinsic part of genies, I suppose. Mermaids aren’t white. They’re mermaids. Being white isn’t an intrinsic part of mermaids – having a fish tail for legs is. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/164 "2019-07-10T21:37:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > This is outrageous! The original Little Mermaid was ethnically Chilean Sea Bass, how dare Disney cast a Patagonian Toothfish! It messes up the entire canon! > > Oh, people are talking about the OTHER half? Psst, that’s a little racist. You’re supposed to say Chilean Sea Bass-American now. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/165 "2019-07-10T23:21:27Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > The color of her skin and hair (and eyes and scales) doesn’t matter to me from a racial standpoint. I’m objecting to changing – for what appears to be no significant reason – an icon which has been pretty well established in the Disney _zeitgeist_ for three decades. But to claim that merely casting a live actress who happens to have somewhat darker skin tone than the cartoon character (we don’t know yet how Disney will present the actress’s hair and eye colors) is “changing an icon” **is** intrinsically approaching the subject “from a racial standpoint”. Halle Bailey actually does look quite a bit like cartoon Ariel, insofar as an actual human woman can look like a combination of an animated character and a fish. The fact that you think her relatively minor difference in skin tone qualifies as “changing” the character of Ariel in a way that makes her no longer recognizable as Disney’s “established” “icon” reflects America’s cultural obsession with racial classification more than any objective alteration in the look of the character. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/166 "2019-07-10T23:25:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Genies are blue (apparently). That’s an intrinsic part of genies, I suppose. \Disney Genies are color-coded by alignment. Jafar becomes a red genie after his requisite idiotball wish\ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/167 "2019-07-10T23:40:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > \Disney Genies are color-coded by alignment. Jafar becomes a red genie after his requisite idiotball wish\ Which raises the question, [what is the relationship between Genies and lightsabers?](https://funnyjunk.com/channel/starwars/Guide+to+lightsaber+colors/NyNqLAl/) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/168 "2019-07-10T23:51:54Z")
Follow-up: If the live-action version had changed the shade of Ariel’s red hair from, say, [cartoon Ariel scarlet](http://mentalfloss.com/article/574049/ariel-red-hair-was-problem-for-the-little-mermaid) to some [human redhead shade](https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/beauty/hair/g2441/red-hair-color-ideas/), that would be an objectively bigger visual shift than changing Ariel’s peachy-beige skin to Halle Bailey’s peachy-bronze. But subjectively, nobody would even register it as a significant change. It really is all about our ingrained notions of racial categories being fundamentally, hugely important differences between people. But mermaids (as far as we know) don’t have racial categories. They just have skin. And scales. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/169 "2019-07-11T03:06:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Genies are blue (apparently). That’s an intrinsic part of genies, I suppose. > > Mermaids aren’t white. They’re mermaids. Being white isn’t an intrinsic part of mermaids – having a fish tail for legs is. Thats really the end of the argument. They arn’t even fucking human. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/170 "2019-07-11T04:34:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s no actor that looks exactly like the cartoon version of Ariel. If I were casting the movie, I would have went with [Sadie Stanley](http://www.justjaredjr.com/2018/07/21/sadie-stanley-as-kim-possible-first-look-photo/) (if she could sing.) Not only does she have the right look, but she has already starred in one Disney animated-to-live adaptation. (Not a very good one, but still…) ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/171 "2019-07-11T06:18:07Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If I were casting the movie, I would have went with [Sadie Stanley](http://www.justjaredjr.com/2018/07/21/sadie-stanley-as-kim-possible-first-look-photo/) (if she could sing.) Not only does she have the right look, but she has already starred in one Disney animated-to-live adaptation. (Not a very good one, but still…) I googled her. Not a natural redhead- Her actual hair is brown. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/172 "2019-07-11T10:21:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Follow-up: If the live-action version had changed the shade of Ariel’s red hair from, say, [cartoon Ariel scarlet](http://mentalfloss.com/article/574049/ariel-red-hair-was-problem-for-the-little-mermaid) to some [human redhead shade](https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/beauty/hair/g2441/red-hair-color-ideas/), that would be an objectively bigger visual shift than changing Ariel’s peachy-beige skin to Halle Bailey’s peachy-bronze. But subjectively, nobody would even register it as a significant change. > > It really is all about our ingrained notions of racial categories being fundamentally, hugely important differences between people. But mermaids (as far as we know) don’t have racial categories. They just have skin. And scales. I think the main challenge anytime you make a live action version of an animated film or comic book is having the character be grounded in reality, still recognizable as the 2-D character and doesn’t look like someone in cosplay or a weird creepy CGI. To your point, people only “care” about her shade of skin color because or all the racial and political connotations humans ascribe to skin color. There is really no reason Ariel’s skin being several shades darker should matter any more than her hair being a more realistic “red” color than in the cartoon. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Thats really the end of the argument. They arn’t even fucking human. Exactly. Which is why her father King Triton will be played by this [actor](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24503/boeing-is-developing-a-new-high-speed-apache-gunship-with-a-pusher-prop-on-its-tail). ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/173 "2019-07-11T13:32:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Sauron** , you first post in the thread discussed Disney changing Ariel’s _race_. Not her skin color, but her race. Well, the reason I find that crazy is we don’t know what Ariel’s race is other than mermaid. You are assuming her race is white. But there are pale skinned, blue eyed people who are categorized as black. So who is to say this is a “race change”? I shouldn’t have said “race” in my first post; I was focused on what others were saying, and followed that narrative. My fault. Again, the issue for me is changing the look of an iconic (for 30 years, anyway) Disney character. I would be making the same point if the live-action version was going to change Ariel’s fish tail / scales from pale green to pink or purple, or changing her hair from red to yellow. I’m approaching this from a character / brand perspective, not racial. Disney has spent millions upon millions of dollars for three decades promoting the Ariel character / brand based on a rigidly defined set of physical characteristics. Changing those characteristics now for no good reason (or at least no reason of which I’m aware) seems counterproductive to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/174 "2019-07-11T13:37:53Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I shouldn’t have said “race” in my first post; I was focused on what others were saying, and followed that narrative. My fault. > > Again, the issue for me is changing the look of an iconic (for 30 years, anyway) Disney character. I would be making the same point if the live-action version was going to change Ariel’s fish tail / scales from pale green to pink or purple, or changing her hair from red to yellow. > > I’m approaching this from a character / brand perspective, not racial. Disney has spent millions upon millions of dollars for three decades promoting the Ariel character / brand based on a rigidly defined set of physical characteristics. Changing those characteristics now for no good reason (or at least no reason of which I’m aware) seems counterproductive to me. Suppose the reason is “Halle Bailey is an enormously talented performer and blew the competition out of the water in her audition”. Would that be a “good reason”, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/175 "2019-07-11T14:15:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Suppose the reason is “Halle Bailey is an enormously talented performer and blew the competition out of the water in her audition”. Would that be a “good reason”, in your opinion? No, for two reasons: 1. I don’t believe Halle Bailey is so far beyond every other possible actress who could play this role that her casting is a no-brainer. If she is, then the vast majority of the production cost should be her salary, because otherwise the movie couldn’t get made. 2. Regardless of who plays the role, the character of Ariel shouldn’t be affected. If _ **I** _ got the role – a 53-year-old-man who can’t sing – I would expect massive CGI to be employed (along with Oscar-worthy voiceover work) to make me look and sound like Ariel as she’s been depicted for 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/176 "2019-07-11T14:19:12Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > No, for two reasons: > > 1. I don’t believe Halle Bailey is so far beyond every other possible actress who could play this role that her casting is a no-brainer. If she is, then the vast majority of the production cost should be her salary, because otherwise the movie couldn’t get made. > > 2. Regardless of who plays the role, the character of Ariel shouldn’t be affected. If _ **I** _ got the role – a 53-year-old-man who can’t sing – I would expect massive CGI to be employed (along with Oscar-worthy voiceover work) to make me look and sound like Ariel as she’s been depicted for 30 years. Okay. Some of us think things like singing and acting ability are far more important to such a role than skin color. Apparently, you feel differently. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/177 "2019-07-11T14:24:46Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > 1. Regardless of who plays the role, the character of Ariel shouldn’t be affected. If _ **I** _ got the role – a 53-year-old-man who can’t sing – I would expect massive CGI to be employed (along with Oscar-worthy voiceover work) to make me look and sound like Ariel as she’s been depicted for 30 years. Why is the visual appearance of Ariel so important? And which of these features do you expect them to maintain in a live-action remake? -Perfectly flawless skin -Eyes the size of lemur eyes -Two solid bars of pure white to replace human teeth -Hair the color of ripe tomatoes -A waist about twice as wide as her biceps -Skin the color of white peach flesh If you’re fine casting an actress with skin blemishes, whose eyes are not readjusted in CGI to become inhumanly large, who has teeth, who doesn’t dye her hair a profoundly unnatural color, and who has the kind of waist achievable without severe body modification, but you DRAW THE LINE AT SKIN COLOR SIR, that’s a little odd, don’tcha think? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/178 "2019-07-11T14:28:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. Some of us think things like singing and acting ability are far more important to such a role than skin color. Apparently, you feel differently. Nice. As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m not discussing skin color _per se_. I’m discussing the characterization of Ariel as she’s been portrayed for 30 years. Would you be offended if Disney employs CGI to make Halle Bailey look like the accepted version of Ariel? They made Will Smith blue to be the Genie in _Aladdin_, and he’s a far more established star than Halle Bailey. I have no issue with Halle Bailey as an actress. I’m sure she’s fantastic at her craft. Edited to add: I give up. Many of you seem determined to put your own spin on what I’m saying, despite my repeated attempts to explain. Either I’m failing to make my point in an understandable manner, or there’s a willful misinterpretation of my posts. Either way, further discussion seems pointless. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/179 "2019-07-11T14:32:31Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Nice. > > As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m not discussing skin color _per se_. I’m discussing the characterization of Ariel as she’s been portrayed for 30 years. > > Would you be offended if Disney employs CGI to make Halle Bailey look like the accepted version of Ariel? They made Will Smith blue to be the Genie in _Aladdin_, and he’s a far more established star than Halle Bailey. > > I have no issue with Halle Bailey as an actress. I’m sure she’s fantastic at her craft. I don’t really care about these choices by Disney – I’m trying to highlight how cultural and societal emphasis on the importance of race and skin color is unnecessary and even harmful, and we should deliberately and purposefully be trying to fight against it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651/180 "2019-07-11T14:43:46Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Again, the issue for me is changing the look of an iconic (for 30 years, anyway) Disney character. […] > > Disney has spent millions upon millions of dollars for three decades promoting the Ariel character / brand based on a rigidly defined set of physical characteristics. Changing those characteristics now for no good reason (or at least no reason of which I’m aware) seems counterproductive to me. But they [changed the characteristics of Belle in _Beauty and the Beast_](http://www.cinema.com.kh/en/Articles/gallery_details.aspx?search=2017.g_liveactionvsanimated_34466), too. Cartoon Belle has a pronounced widow’s peak and very abundant dark brown hair in a topknot, Emma Watson Belle doesn’t. Cartoon Belle has much pinker skin and curvier eyebrows than Emma Watson Belle. Cartoon Belle wears long yellow gloves and other accessories with her iconic ball gown, Emma Watson Belle doesn’t. Objectively, this is as much of a visual change as making Ariel’s skin a few shades darker. The reason you think that the live-action casting “changed the look” of Ariel so much more than Belle is, again, all about race, even if you don’t intend it that way. You are just culturally conditioned, as we all are in American culture, to think that people in different racial categories “look different” in a much more fundamental way than people in the same racial category, even if the objective visual differences between them are smaller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-mermaid-is-gasp-black/836651.md?page=10)