# The Little Women Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462 "2006-12-17T01:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/21 "2006-12-18T17:17:48Z")
I think Amy also matured a lot…she realized in Europe that she did not have the artistic talent that she thought she did and gracefully gave up her dream, and turned down a much wealthier Englishman to marry Laurie. Do you think Aunt March did right not taking Jo to Europe, taking Amy instead? I think she made the right choice, and taught Jo a lesson I think she badly needed, with her ungrateful, me-against-the-world attitude she got every once in awhile, while Amy grew up a whole bunch with her Tour. ---
**Author:** ![Scribble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scribble/32/3317_2.png) [@Scribble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scribble)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/22 "2006-12-18T17:37:23Z")
[QUOTE=freckafree] I always assumed she died of a weakened heart. The description of her becoming so tired she can no longer even sew kind of fits that. [/QUOTE] I thought it was tuberculosis. Wasn’t she described as having “consumption” (now called “TB”) and having trouble breathing? ---
**Author:** ![No\_Power\_In\_The\_Verse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f9ae1b/32.png) [@No\_Power\_In\_The\_Verse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Power_In_The_Verse)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/23 "2006-12-18T17:57:40Z")
I have to say that I never cry at anything but in Beth’s final chapter I sit with a box of tissues and sob. The relationship of Jo and Beth always reminded me of me and my little sister so I guess that’s why it hits home. I too thought Mr. Bhaer was a random old man at first, now I think he’s on my list of literary crushes. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/24 "2006-12-18T18:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Scribble] I thought it was tuberculosis. Wasn’t she described as having “consumption” (now called “TB”) and having trouble breathing? [/QUOTE] They never came out and stated her disease, just that she never fully recovered from the scarlet fever. I’m guessing the fever damaged her heart in some way…she died in her early 20s, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/25 "2006-12-18T18:46:48Z")
While LMA didn’t call it such, today if we could autopsy Beth, we’d probably say that Beth died of congestive heart failure (responsible for her weakness, shortness of breath and quiet voice) caused by rheumatic fever. Rheumatic fever is not an infection, but a cross-reactive disorder - the same antibodies that fight off the strep A also damage the heart, joints or skin. Sometimes, but not always, rheumatic fever follows Strep A infections like scarlet fever and strep throat. (That is, it always follows a case of strep - although the case may be undiagnosed and asymptomatic - but not every case of strep results in rheumatic fever.) Lots of people mistakingly use “scarlet fever” and “rheumatic fever” synonymously, but they are not the same thing. Writers talking about a prolonged convalescence from scarlet fever are actually noting the symptoms of rheumatic fever - scarlet fever itself is over in a couple of weeks. Rheumatic fever usually starts about 20 days after the first symptoms of scarlet fever. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/26 "2006-12-18T19:03:46Z")
I have nearly every copy of everything LMA wrote, and thank goodness for Project Gutenberg or I’d never have had a chance to read some of her early writings like her novel _Work_. I also have a biography entitled, I think, _Louisa May_, which is a fascinating read. It’s interesting to note the origin of some of the events which were written into her novels. I’m going to have to read the biography again, but I seem to remember it was mother Alcott who brought about scarlet fever in her daughter Elizabeth, either by bringing it home or by sending her on a charity mission. Mother Alcott was addicted to charity, to the point of neglecting her own family. LMA had a blind spot regarding her parents, and it was characteristic of her to put the fault of Beth’s death in the novel onto the shoulders of Jo. Another factoid of interest from the biography: the Alcott family were friends with such interesting New England artists as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau. The young child LMA was infatuated with Thoreau, and would follow him around on his tramps through the forest. The author of the biography feels that this early obsession was the basis of LMA’s heroes in her books often being shown as rough, woodsman-like men, like Mack in _Rose in Bloom_ or Dan in _Jo’s Boys_. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/27 "2006-12-18T22:15:49Z")
Which of the several movie versions of _LW_ is your favorite and why? I like the 1949 version because Peter Lawford looked _exactly_ like the picture of Laurie that I had in my head. ---
**Author:** ![Caprese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9a28c/32.png) [@Caprese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caprese)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/28 "2006-12-18T22:33:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] Which of the several movie versions of _LW_ is your favorite and why? I like the 1949 version because Peter Lawford looked _exactly_ like the picture of Laurie that I had in my head. [/QUOTE] I like Gillian Armstrong’s version from 1994. I thought it was beautifully shot: those snowy Christmas scenes, Meg’s wedding, Beth’s passing. I loved Susan Sarandon as Marmee, Christian Bale as Laurie, Gabriel Byrne as Prof Bhaer and Kirsten Dunst as young Amy. And Winona Ryder was pretty good as Jo. Never was sure how I felt about Claire Danes as Beth, but all the other portrayals rang true to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/29 "2006-12-18T22:39:57Z")
[QUOTE=Caprese] I loved Susan Sarandon as Marmee, Christian Bale as Laurie, Gabriel Byrne as Prof Bhaer and Kirsten Dunst as young Amy. And Winona Ryder was pretty good as Jo. Never was sure how I felt about Claire Danes as Beth, but all the other portrayals rang true to me. [/QUOTE] That’s my favorite. I thought Danes was luminous and ethereal in her portrayal of Beth . She struck just the right note of delicacy without robbing the character of her spunk. Susan Sarandon was\* perfect\* as Marmee-- exactly as I always pictured her when I was reading the books. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/30 "2006-12-19T03:15:37Z")
I’ll have to look it up, but I read somewhere (I am pretty sure that it was in the introduction of my Library of America copy of Little Women) that Louisa May Alcott intended for Jo March to remain an unmarried woman, but her publisher insisted that Jo find “happiness”, so LMA choose a “humorous” (or she might even have used the word “ridiculous”) match for for Jo. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/31 "2006-12-19T03:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I’ll have to look it up, but I read somewhere (I am pretty sure that it was in the introduction of my Library of America copy of Little Women) that Louisa May Alcott intended for Jo March to remain an unmarried woman, but her publisher insisted that Jo find “happiness”, so LMA choose a “humorous” (or she might even have used the word “ridiculous”) match for for Jo. [/QUOTE] That makes a hell of a lot of sense. If you can find a cite for that, I’d like it. I was content with her not marrying Laurie, but it didn’t really make sense for her to marry at all. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/32 "2006-12-19T03:31:17Z")
**Caprese** and **Sonia** , I’m glad you appreciate my choices. When your sister is an atheist and she wants you to read something at her wedding, you get creative! (We both love LW, so it worked beautifully.) [QUOTE=delphica] I use “It’s your only beauty!” or more often, change it to “It’s my only beauty!” whenever I get caught up in something trivial, like “I broke a nail … and IT’S MY ONLY BEAUTY!” “The jelly won’t _jell_ !” is good whenever something simple isn’t working. [/QUOTE] LOL! I am immediately adopting these for my own use! (I always talk about “wicked quillies,” but that’s a LM reference.) Has anyone else read _Behind the Mask: The Unknown Thrillers of Louisa May Alcott_? I thought the stories were just great! ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/33 "2006-12-19T05:56:12Z")
Dangerosa: From The Library of America edition of Little Women, Little Men, and Jo’s Boys, edited by Elaine Showalter. Note on the Texts (p. 1078) > [@](#): > > In private letters, [Alcott] complained about one of the demands her publisher and her readers made of her for the sequel: her character Jo, she felt, “should have remained a literary spinster,” but they wanted to see her arried. Alcott coplied, but made “a funny match” for Jo. I think Alcott felt obligated to give her books commercial appeal; with the proceeds from her books she paid off the family debts and the short chronology in this edition says how she felt she “must be a father now” to her nephews and wrote “Little Men” in order to support them [the nephews]. But strong, independent Jo should have remained single. That would be more fitting to her character. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/34 "2006-12-19T05:58:10Z")
“… wanted to see her **m** arried. Alcott co **m** plied …” ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/35 "2006-12-19T06:12:45Z")
A couple more things: to confirm what teela brown said LMA’s sister Lizzie (3 years younger) caught scarlet fever at the age of 21 from a poor family that the mother was taking care of, and died 2 years later. I see that Lissla Lissar mentions the title “Good Wives”. Little Women was written in two parts: _Little Women; or Meg, Jo, Beth and Amy_ in 1868, and _Little Women; or Meg, Jo, Beth and Amy (Part Second)_ in 1869. LMA didn’t get copyright in Great Britain and so several publishers reprinted it without her consent. The second part was given several new titles in England depending on the publisher, such as _Little Women Wedded_, _Little Women Married_, _Nice Wives_, or _Good Wives_. In 1880 both parts were published in a single-volume edition. I remember being much confused as a youngster because my mother had an english edition of the first part of Little Women, and then Little Men. So I started reading Little Men without knowing what happened in the second part of Little Women, and it took me a while to figure out what happened to Laurie, why he wasn’t married to Jo, and which sister he actually _was_ married to, plus wondering how Beth died etc. I remember thinking that LMA should have done a better job of explaining what the hell was going on. Then I finally found a copy of Little Women that had **both** parts and all became clear. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/36 "2006-12-19T08:30:33Z")
I never knew that, **Arnold**! That actually explains a lot. As a kid, I never got past Part 1, and only knew of one other girl my age who did. I got into Part 2 as a teenager, which seems right, as the events in Part 2 are more complex (and depressing). — I don’t get the Amy-hate. I agree that the scenes with her and Teddy in Europe are touching, showing a genuine friendship that develops into a courtship. And don’t forget a) how he visited her so often when she was sequestered at Aunt March’s, b) the scene where she draws him “as you are,” [morose and slump-shouldered] as opposed to “as you were” [vital, reining in a spirited horse] and c) the scene where he arrives to escort her to a ball and is thunderstruck by the sight of her framed romantically by velvet drapes. And their proposal is every bit as touching as Jo and Bhaer’s. “How well we pull together!” “So well that I wish we might always pull in the same boat.” — And Jo had already made it clear to Teddy that she did not love him in that way. If she had done a 180 after that, I would have flung the book with great force. And I adore Friedrich; he is such a gentle soul. — I never really connected with Beth, to be honest. Didn’t cry when she died; the person I cried for was Jo, who had such a hard time moving on. But there is one scene that resonated with me: when she tells Jo how the neighbor’s baby died in her arms. One would think that fragile Beth would be the least well-equipped to deal with that, but on further reflection, she might be the most. She was certainly the most spiritual, after all. — One of my high-school teachers told us an anecdote about the first year she was married, when she bought a few yards of velvet, sewed it into a dress, and showed it to her husband, who looked at her aghast and said, “You can’t do that! You’ve upset the budget!” I wanted to say, “That’s really interesting…almost as interesting as when I read it in _Little Women_.” Looking back, I probably should have. — LMA was very egalitarian, but I did detect a tiny bit of snobbery in the scene where Amy gets caught with the pickled limes. Before hitting her hand with the ruler (and I think it was the palm, not the knuckles. Neither tickles, but I’d still take palm over knuckles.) the teacher also made her throw the limes out the window, to the great delight of the Irish children outside, who either did not go to school, or perhaps attended public school, and that was supposed to be an extra bit of humiliation. Still, LMA was a product of her times, and “OMG s/he’s Irish! Ack!” was quite prevalent in those days. — Perhaps it’s because I’m looking at it from today’s perspective, but I thought Jo’s attachment to Meg in Part 1 was almost pathological. She hated John Brooke for no reason except that he was in love with Meg, and at one point even said, “I wish I could marry her myself and keep her in the family!” What was stopping her from wanting Meg to be happy, even if marriage did take her out of the house? — And I actually thought it was a bit callous of whoever said Jo’s hair was “Your **one** beauty.” Like, with her hair short she makes children run screaming in terror? ---
**Author:** ![manx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@manx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manx)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/37 "2006-12-19T08:44:24Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I see that Lissla Lissar mentions the title “Good Wives”. Little Women was written in two parts: _Little Women; or Meg, Jo, Beth and Amy_ in 1868, and _Little Women; or Meg, Jo, Beth and Amy (Part Second)_ in 1869. LMA didn’t get copyright in Great Britain and so several publishers reprinted it without her consent. The second part was given several new titles in England depending on the publisher, such as _Little Women Wedded_, _Little Women Married_, _Nice Wives_, or _Good Wives_. In 1880 both parts were published in a single-volume edition. [/QUOTE] Great googly-moogly! Bless you sir! I have an edition of \*Little Women \* that I’ve read at least a dozen times, and NOT ONCE in it does Beth die. And every couple of years, I read about poor Beth’s tragic death in _Little Woman_. So I reread it, and nothing! AHAHA now I know - I only have half the damn book! Off to the bookshop. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/38 "2006-12-19T12:39:37Z")
Thanks Arnold. Jo’s marriage always seemed to come from nowhere. I never understood why she would marry anyone when she wasn’t willing to marry her best friend. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/39 "2006-12-19T14:11:32Z")
**ivylass** , the Christmas line is going to become traditional at the **Lissar** household. I was laughing so much that my husband came in and asked what I was reading. I explained the context, read the line, and fell about laughing. He sighed. I repeated it, and started laughing hysterically again. He shook his head, and went back to bed. Maybe I should read him _Little Women_. **Rilchiam** , I sort of agree about Jo’s reaction to Meg’s marriage. I think it was excessive, but Jo was jealous, idealized her family, and was afraid of change, partly owing to her father’s absence. Also, Jo really didn’t want to grow up, and assume adult responsibilities, and follow stricter rules of behaviour. Meg’s growing up frightened Jo, because it reminded her that her own happy childhood would soon end. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462/40 "2006-12-19T23:29:43Z")
Did I kill this thread? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-little-women-thread/384462.md?page=3)