# The locker room, and homosexuality. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268 "2014-02-13T18:33:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/101 "2014-02-14T17:49:50Z")
**Quick** … I don’t know much about sports, but I think the reason why the subject came up with my friends is because some athlete ‘came out’. I don’t know what sport it was. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/102 "2014-02-14T18:03:09Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > All this talk of social change and cultural shifts is fine and all but there are also slight practical differences to consider. > > - Urinals > - Toiletries (Hairdryer, curling iron, scented lotions, talc, aftershave, feminine hygiene, etc.) > - Services (Shoe shines, TV’s) 😕 What’s to consider? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/103 "2014-02-14T18:10:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m at work and I don’t want to google “coed showers” for obvious reasons. Can you explain how this works? Do men and women use these at the same time and effectively walk around half dressed or fully naked? Where exactly does this take place? In the 70’s I lived in a co-ed fraternity, and on at least one wing/floor we had just one bathroom, which was originally built for men but was used co-ed. The women covered the two urinals with plastic bags, which wasn’t a problem. The toilets had stall doors. There was one shower room with about 4 showers; the rule was simple. If someone’s in there, ask who it is, and don’t go in unless you’re welcome. I don’t remember how we handled getting dressed/undressed, but I assume the women undressed inside and reached past the shower curtain on the doorway to hang up their clothing on a peg outside. > [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > The thing that I’m hung up on is why we have separate changing rooms for men and for women, and why. How does it differ for homosexuals? If people have this idea that women can’t defend themselves but ALL men can… well I just don’t buy that. The answer is pretty simple: it’s something we grew up doing, so we’re used to it. That’s really all there is to it. The convention developed back when homosexuality was so stigmatized that straight people didn’t worry much about the issue. Now that it’s out there, it still doesn’t seem to be much of a problem either, because the issue was personal modesty and propriety rather than sexual interest. You might as well ask why nude beaches weren’t common in Puritan times and places. > [@](#): > > Why are private shower stalls out of the question? I mean, for stadiums and such? They’re not. They’re just an unnecessary extra expense. Especially in stadiums – the showers there are for athletes who’ve spent LOTS of time in communal rooms anyway. A better question might be for things like campgrounds, where I’ve seen both extremes. Are you saying there should be a law mandating personal privacy in public-accessible showers? I sure hope not. If you’re encouraging it among facility designers, I have no issue with that, but good luck. Clearly, a lot of people would benefit, regardless of mere straight/gay man/woman issues. I’m sure there are a number of people who have conditions that they’d rather not display to others, and that’s their prerogative. It would be nice to accommodate them. But by what means? A public interest campaign? Laws? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/104 "2014-02-14T18:12:16Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Camping trips with burners. Basically, a local regional Burning Man event. Yes, that’s exactly how it works. People walk around naked if they want to, or if not, they act like regular gym patrons, wearing towels and trying to get dressed discreetly. This is a self selected population sample. Also, context plays a BIG role in influencing behavior. If I chose to show up at such an event I have de facto accepted certain social behaviour and can’t freak out about it. Also complaining about it would ensure I don’t get invited back (probably quietly judged as a prude), so in a sense I’m pressured to accept them. It’s like showing up at a nude beach and keeping your shorts and t-shirt on the entire time. > [@DrCube](#): > > The point is that sex is a red herring here. People who are private don’t care if it’s women or men who are watching them get dressed, and people who don’t mind getting dressed in public don’t mind either way. The issue of the OP is clearly not sex (or gender) but sexual orientation. > [@DrCube](#): > > Are there really people who are perfectly okay with a bunch of strange dudes watching them shower, but as soon as a woman shows up, it’s unbearable? No, the divide here is between those who would rather not shower, dress and use the restroom in public, regardless of the gender of people nearby, and those who don’t care either way. Nonsense. Most people are perfectly okay disrobing to a context selected audience (only some regardless of gender). However, most people (esp. women) would not feel comfortable in co-ed settings. You can call it archaic or quaint or un-evolved if you like, but your views are far from standard or even common, and current gender segregated reality remains the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/105 "2014-02-14T18:13:40Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > **Quick** … I don’t know much about sports, but I think the reason why the subject came up with my friends is because some athlete ‘came out’. I don’t know what sport it was. Football, Michael Sam of of the Missouri Tigers. SEC Defensive player of the year and from what I’ve read (keep in mind I don’t know football at all) is thought to become a 3rd or 4th round NFL draft pick. > **[NFL draft prospect Sam says he's gay](https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10429030/michael-sam-missouri-tigers-says-gay)** > > Michael Sam, an All-American defensive lineman from Missouri and the Associated Press' SEC Defensive Player of the Year, said that he is gay in interviews with ESPN's Outside the Lines and the New York Times on Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/106 "2014-02-14T18:14:36Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > **Quick** … I don’t know much about sports, but I think the reason why the subject came up with my friends is because some athlete ‘came out’. I don’t know what sport it was. Well, this is a whole other thing that I would really rather not get into. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/107 "2014-02-14T18:17:26Z")
> [@andros](#): > > 😕 > > What’s to consider? Additional reasons why men and women would prefer to have separate locker rooms other than “it’s just the way it’s been.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/108 "2014-02-14T18:18:37Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > In the 70’s I lived in a co-ed fraternity, and on at least one wing/floor we had just one bathroom, which was originally built for men but was used co-ed. The women covered the two urinals with plastic bags, which wasn’t a problem. The toilets had stall doors. There was one shower room with about 4 showers; the rule was simple. If someone’s in there, ask who it is, and don’t go in unless you’re welcome. > > I don’t remember how we handled getting dressed/undressed, but I assume the women undressed inside and reached past the shower curtain on the doorway to hang up their clothing on a peg outside. It sounds like they were “co-ed” in name only. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/109 "2014-02-14T18:21:53Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Are you saying there should be a law mandating personal privacy in public-accessible showers? I sure hope not. If you’re encouraging it among facility designers, I have no issue with that, but good luck. Clearly, a lot of people would benefit, regardless of mere straight/gay man/woman issues. I’m sure there are a number of people who have conditions that they’d rather not display to others, and that’s their prerogative. It would be nice to accommodate them. But by what means? A public interest campaign? Laws? No, I don’t think there should be a law. I guess if I were to care enough about this, I would say “encouraging it among facility designers”. By what means? I don’t know. I figure if pro athletes were to request them, it would trickle down to other facilities??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/110 "2014-02-14T18:31:03Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Football, Michael Sam of of the Missouri Tigers. SEC Defensive player of the year and from what I’ve read (keep in mind I don’t know football at all) is thought to become a 3rd or 4th round NFL draft pick. > > [Michael Sam of Missouri Tigers says he's gay - ESPN](http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/10429030/michael-sam-missouri-tigers-says-gay) Michael Sam is awesome. After hearing him talk, and talk about his team members accepting him, it really fills my heart. I’m really hope people are cool with him in the locker room. I really hope I’m full of shit, and I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/111 "2014-02-14T18:43:02Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > All this talk of social change and cultural shifts is fine and all but there are also slight practical differences to consider. > > - Urinals > - Toiletries (Hairdryer, curling iron, scented lotions, talc, aftershave, feminine hygiene, etc.) > - Services (Shoe shines, TV’s) Not sure why this is a problem. The difference is between having all this stuff in two different rooms, and having it all in one room. Another serious annoyance of the current set-up that affects even those who are not gay or transgendered is having to deal with families. My wife experiences this one regularly, as we have a son who plays sports in public facilities. He’s now 8, and for the last few years, very naturally, she has not been able to accompany him into the boy’s change room. While he’s (now) old enough now to do it on his own, it can be a serious inconvenience, not to mention worry, not to be able to keep an eye on him - mostly because he dwaddles and plays with other boys, but also because if (say) he’s playing hockey, she can’t help him with his equipment, which is awkward for young kids; sometimes other kids grab his stuff by mistake, and it gets lost, or he grabs theirs, and we have to hunt for the owner. Some places deal with the family issue by having a “family room”, but that just multiplies the problem - now there are effectively _three_ change rooms. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/112 "2014-02-14T18:44:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So if a woman were to oggle you or your friends in the locker room, you’d strongly object to that, right? Can I ogle 'em right back? I’m pretty sure I’d be getting the better end of the deal. In any use case involving me, private nudity would be best in order to save the other participants from having to see me in all my “unclad glory”. I wouldn’t normally inflict my nudity on anyone else, because, you know, overweight and slightly oldish. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/113 "2014-02-14T18:57:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not sure why this is a problem. The difference is between having all this stuff in two different rooms, and having it all in one room. > > Another serious annoyance of the current set-up that affects even those who are not gay or transgendered is having to deal with families. My wife experiences this one regularly, as we have a son who plays sports in public facilities. He’s now 8, and for the last few years, very naturally, she has not been able to accompany him into the boy’s change room. While he’s (now) old enough now to do it on his own, it can be a serious inconvenience, not to mention worry, not to be able to keep an eye on him - mostly because he dwaddles and plays with other boys, but also because if (say) he’s playing hockey, she can’t help him with his equipment, which is awkward for young kids; sometimes other kids grab his stuff by mistake, and it gets lost, or he grabs theirs, and we have to hunt for the owner. > > Some places deal with the family issue by having a “family room”, but that just multiplies the problem - now there are effectively _three_ change rooms. I only offered up those examples as alternative explanations as to the OP asking why the rooms are split as they are, and if they should continue to. Everyone seemed to be fixated on the sexual assault angle or the social agenda angle. Are you saying 2 separate rooms… as in… the current set up is fine? Or are you suggesting 2 separate unisex rooms? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/114 "2014-02-14T19:02:04Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I only offered up those examples as alternative explanations as to the OP asking why the rooms are split as they are, and if they should continue to. Everyone seemed to be fixated on the sexual assault angle or the social agenda angle. > > Are you saying 2 separate rooms… as in… the current set up is fine? Or are you suggesting 2 separate unisex rooms? I’m suggesting one room, containing facilities suitable for both men and women’s use; and that everyone use that one room - men, women, transgendered, families with kids of both sexes, etc. I realize that the comfort level for this is not there in North America yet (though as I understand it, this happens in some Nordic countries). It would however be the most convenient, if it were culturally acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/115 "2014-02-14T19:08:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m suggesting one room, containing facilities suitable for both men and women’s use; and that everyone use that one room - men, women, transgendered, families with kids of both sexes, etc. > > I realize that the comfort level for this is not there in North America yet (though as I understand it, this happens in some Nordic countries). It would however be the most convenient, if it were culturally acceptable. I could live in a world like that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/116 "2014-02-14T19:10:53Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I could live in a world like that. Wait… so you’re now okay having a gay guy check you out as long as you can be checking out the hot milf? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/117 "2014-02-14T19:15:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Wait… so you’re now okay having a gay guy check you out as long as you can be checking out the hot milf? 😛 Seriously… I WISH people were to be checking me out. I don’t mind that kind of attention at all. Even if it was objectifying. It’s been a long time since I’ve caught someone looking me over. I never did mind it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/118 "2014-02-14T19:17:21Z")
Just messin’ with ya… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/119 "2014-02-14T19:17:53Z")
I know 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268/120 "2014-02-14T21:10:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A woman goes to a gym employee and says, “There’s a man in the women’s locker room,” that’s usually pretty easy to independently verify. Could you please describe the physical characteristics that absolutely determine who is a man, and who is not? Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-locker-room-and-homosexuality/681268.md?page=7)