# The logic behind believing or not believing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226 "2013-06-05T17:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/41 "2013-06-06T16:19:16Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > And I cant make you and intelligent logical critical thinker. No-_you_ “cant”. You proposed that there were thousands, I asked you for your best example, and you came up with…“No you!” That’s what I get for learning logical critical thinking from people that actually know the subject, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/42 "2013-06-06T16:20:59Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > I can go with that. There have been thousands of unusual occurances that suggest God might exist. I know of no unusual occurrences that point to God as a cause any more than they point to aliens, invisible fairies, or an infinite of other evidence-free (or, for that matter, naturalistic) explanations. Do you know of any? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/43 "2013-06-06T16:45:13Z")
I would consider myself to be a fairly typical blue collar believer. I have no concept of what I believe in yet I do have reasons for believing that are fairly simple and straight forward. I can’t hear the phrase " age of the universe" without imagining that someone or something created it. When I watch TV shows expaining the formation and death of stars all acting under mostly known physical laws it reinforces my believe in something very big and very powerful and intelligent. Same with evolution, the most perfect plan one could possibly ever imagine. I see these things as evidence while I understand others don’t. ``` From the little I know of the physical universe my logic tells me that God may very well be another physical world that is simply too big to recognise the existence of. Light may not travel fast enough for us to develop a complete picture. His world would have time on its hands that we don't. My conclusion is that it is physicaly impossible to ever hope to see this larger world if in fact it even exists. ``` ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/44 "2013-06-06T16:47:20Z")
I think an important question is whether this ‘logical, intelligent critical thinker’ has turned his amazing mind to the question of God’s existence. There are plenty of smart people who just don’t bother worrying about whether God exists or if he has this or that power, much less questions like whether communion wafers really turns to flesh. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that anyone who is truly curious can fully accept the answers that religion gives to basic questions. They all lead back to ‘because God said so.’ On the other hand, it’s very easy to believe that most people just aren’t interested in those questions and that is OK. Maybe ‘logical, intelligent critical thinkers’ have more important stuff to spend their time on. How would I know? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/45 "2013-06-06T16:48:58Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > ISame with evolution, the most perfect plan one could possibly ever imagine. I see these things as evidence while I understand others don’t. What other plans are you comparing it to? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/46 "2013-06-06T16:52:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-_you_ “cant”. You proposed that there were thousands, I asked you for your best example, and you came up with…“No you!” > That’s what I get for learning logical critical thinking from people that actually know the subject, I guess. As did I. You can play that game without me. I am under the assumption that you are well read and well educated. Don’t pretend there are not volumes of books on the subject to read about peoples experiences. Some here have gone with the loony label, that’s fine. If that covers it for you that is fine too. It is your prerogative to ignore what you like or label the evidence as coincidence, conspiracy or loony or give it your own name. It does not mean others are wrong to do otherwise and does not diminish the fact that people think they have seen some pretty remarkable things. I am only here to challenge your apparent view that intelligent, logical critical thinkers can’t possibly believe in God. I have provided the start of one of many possible paths for them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/47 "2013-06-06T16:53:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I know of no unusual occurrences that point to God as a cause any more than they point to aliens, invisible fairies, or an infinite of other evidence-free (or, for that matter, naturalistic) explanations. Do you know of any? Yes, well yes to the point that they make me think. ---
**Author:** ![trabajabamos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@trabajabamos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trabajabamos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/48 "2013-06-06T16:53:54Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have friend who is constantly saying that a logical, intelligent critical thinker could not possibly believe in God. > \ > Could these people not be considered intelligent, logical, critical thinkers, both based on what they know and don’t know about the universe. Your friend seems to be making a lot of assumptions and using loaded words carelessly because it’s obvious that there are logical, intelligent people with the ability to think critically that believe in God. That said, I’d be curious to know how many illogical views a person can hold before they’re deemed illogical or how many stupid ideas a person can have before they stop being intelligent. How many poorly considered positions can I hold before I lose credibility as a critical thinker? Can I mess up a couple of times or is it a zero tolerance sort of thing? I think a more reasonable tact for your friend to take would be that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of useful information or argument pointing to the existence of any particular God or gods. It’s not that logical, critical thinkers can’t be theists so much as it is extremely difficult to directly arrive at theism via logical, critical thought. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/49 "2013-06-06T17:03:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What other plans are you comparing it to? ``` Humans have not come up with any strategies for developing something even remotely comparable to a universe with lfe. We know that this world will end and that life will end with it as will all other worlds in our universe at some point. My queston to God would be: God, is this just a numbers game? Do you have something specific you are trying to create and planting billions of seeds all over the universe hoping that one of them will come out as you hope? Or are each and everyone of them destined to evolve into something very specific that you have a plan for? ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/50 "2013-06-06T17:03:20Z")
Of course intelligent people can believe in God. But the act itself is very, very stupid. Intelligent people do stupid things all the time. Some overeat, some smoke, some suck off strangers through glory holes because their religion doesn’t let them have real relationships. Now, ITR has said that he has logical reasons for believing in God before, but when asked for those reasons, he cites some book and tells you to read it. I suggest that if someone can’t relate in fairly simple terms the reasons behind their belief, they didn’t really arrive at it via logic or reason. And that’s the central problem. No one has arrived at a religious mindset via sound logic or intelligence. If they’re otherwise logical or intelligent, they may convince themselves that they have, but it’s just not the case. Now there are plenty of illogical and/or stupid atheists, after all, it’s the default state of humanity. If people didn’t lie to their children and tell them that God is watching them on the other side of the clouds, very few would believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/51 "2013-06-06T17:06:18Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > As did I. > > You can play that game without me. I am under the assumption that you are well read and well educated. Don’t pretend there are not volumes of books on the subject to read about peoples experiences. Some here have gone with the loony label, that’s fine. If that covers it for you that is fine too. > > It is your prerogative to ignore what you like or label the evidence as coincidence, conspiracy or loony or give it your own name. It does not mean others are wrong to do otherwise and does not diminish the fact that people think they have seen some pretty remarkable things. > > I am only here to challenge your apparent view that intelligent, logical critical thinkers can’t possibly believe in God. I have provided the start of one of many possible paths for them to do so. There is no book on earth that can tell me what _you_ think is the best example of an unusual occurrence that points to the existence of the particular “god” _you_ are referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/52 "2013-06-06T17:08:16Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Yes, well yes to the point that they make me think. And what would they be? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/53 "2013-06-06T17:33:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As far as evidence from thousands of years ago- eyewitness accounts require eyewitnesses, and all the eyewitnesses from long ago are dead. So there are no eyewitness accounts of events from long ago- only written reports about claims by eyewitnesses. Oh I don’t know. I recently read Killing Lincoln. I am pretty sure all the eyewitnesses are dead. Maybe it didn’t happen. That is thought provoking. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/54 "2013-06-06T17:35:06Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Oh I don’t know. I recently read Killing Lincoln. I am pretty sure all the eyewitnesses are dead. Maybe it didn’t happen. That is thought provoking. Not really. Well…maybe for _you_. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/55 "2013-06-06T17:40:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what would they be? I can think of the titles to two of the many books I read in the last year. Killing Lincoln and …hmm maybe only one. That won’t help with this discussion…Come to think of it, I can’t remember the title of the book I read last week…something about the Chinese going to war with America, well that won’t help either. Where are you going with this? You want me to cite from memory any given title I may have read that intrigues me. You apparently have missed that section of the library which is a real mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/56 "2013-06-06T17:42:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not really. > Well…maybe for _you_. Not really, but perhaps for iiandyiiii who made the claim that because all the eyewitnesses are dead that events cannot be true. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/57 "2013-06-06T17:42:49Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Yes, well yes to the point that they make me think. I didn’t ask about occurrences that made you think, I asked about occurrences that point to God as a better explanation than a naturalistic (or invented) explanation. I’m unaware of any such occurrences… what about you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/58 "2013-06-06T17:44:33Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Not really, but perhaps for iiandyiiii who made the claim that because all the eyewitnesses are dead that events cannot be true. I didn’t make this claim at all. I said that there can be no eyewitness testimony for events from long ago. This is a fact. Historians must rely on other means to verify the historicity of a given event. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/59 "2013-06-06T17:45:10Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > I can think of the titles to two of the many books I read in the last year. Killing Lincoln and …hmm maybe only one. That won’t help with this discussion…Come to think of it, I can’t remember the title of the book I read last week…something about the Chinese going to war with America, well that won’t help either. > > Where are you going with this? You want me to cite from memory any given title I may have read that intrigues me. You apparently have missed that section of the library which is a real mystery to me. I am tired of your bullshit stall tactics. The next time you want to talk about examples that prove your point, why don’t you bring them with you, m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/60 "2013-06-06T17:46:22Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Oh I don’t know. I recently read Killing Lincoln. I am pretty sure all the eyewitnesses are dead. Maybe it didn’t happen. That is thought provoking. You’re totally misinterpreting what I said- I can’t tell if it’s deliberate or not. Regardless, there is tons and tons of evidence for Lincoln’s assassination aside from eyewitness testimony. What evidence is there that points to God’s existence more than other explanations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=4)